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Does anyone here use creatine?
Ive read up about it and I think it may suit my current training regime.
Just wondering who else uses it. what they think of it and if they have had any dramas with it, ie does it make you crook/fat if you arent exercising? Does it affect your mood? I read that it may reduce some electrolyte levels but this can be offset with a magnesium supplement.
Lets hear it :)
ChRiStOpHa
01-Apr-06, 08:14pm
I use to use it when I was training a couple of years ago. In my opinion its good value and results are noticable after a month or two. This being increased strength and faster recovery times. The main thing you will notice is the ability to push out a few extra reps at the end of each set. There is a whole heap of science behind this which I'm sure you will have already read.
As for gaining weight while not training. I never had or heard of anyone having these issues. Generally when your not training EG. scheduled rest period, you won't be needing the creatine. The only point that comes to mind is water retension. Which creatine certainly does increase. This would mean that you would appear "bigger" then you really are.
There are two types of creatine, one is "sports drink like", where you take before, during and after excersise. This type of creatine is easier on the liver.
The second type requires you to take it for a "loading phase" for about a week, which means you need to stockpile it, then you just top up for about the month. You generally take this morning, noon and night. With this second method most people recommend you go month on/month off, because its harder on your liver.
Taking creatine shouldnt effect your mood, but it does make you feel more energetic. I don't know if it makes you sick/fat if you take it while not excercising -- but then why would you take it in the first place if you werent?
Creatine sucks a lot of water out of your body, especially with the "loading phase" version, so increasing your consumption is key. Taking dieuretics (eg: alcohol) on creos is a really bad idea, you're looking for trouble.
A lot of people think creatine "pumps you up", but most of it is water-weight. Especially with the month on/month off method, you will see your weight shift on and off the creatine -- but -- it will allow you to do more reps and more sets, so, even when you are in your "off" phase and lose weight, you will still weigh more/be bigger than if you didnt take creos at all.
I've tried both versions back in the day, and I found the "loading" creatine monohydrate gave me better results but its a hassle to go through the loading and month on/month off. I would stick with the kind where you just have it before/after/during your workout.
Hope that helped :P
It does... But Im mainly after things for short and bursty anaerobic activity (ie quick martial arts exercises) and for getting more strength/power for some exercises like that.
Ill also be starting again with fitball type work and pilates but not nessecarily be hitting the iron at all. Am I totally barking up the wrong tree in thinking for this stuff or not?
Yeah, it still should be ok, but i would go with the "sports drink" type creos.
Stupid question time:
Whats that? Do you have an example? Why that and not the pure powder stuff? Such as this:
http://www.purenutrition.com.au/products.php
(at the bottom)
Some good info on creatine...
Creatine Part 1. What it is and what it does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Creatine is made up of 3 amino acids Arginine, Glycine and Methionine. Your liver has the ability to combine these amino acids to create creatine itself. However your body may not manufacture as much as your muscles are capable of holding. Individual intrinsic creatine production varies between individuals, some people may naturally produce as much as they need (one of the reasons you may not be able to keep up with your training partner) whilst others may be well below the limit. This is where dietary creatine comes into play. Creatine already exists in your diet, assuming you eat red meat, in low levels, a 16 oz beef steak might contain 1-2 grams. However eating 6 steaks a day, whilst enjoyable at first, is probably not the best way to get an efficacious dose of creatine from your daily diet. This is where creatine supplements can help you. I'll go into more detail about the range of supplements available in part 3, but first let's see how creatine works.
With a Jennifer Anniston flick of the hair, here’s the science part, concentrate:
Creatines primary role as a sports supplement is to increase energy available for muscle contraction, to understand how it does this we need to go into some biological detail. In your body you have a compound called ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate). Put very simply ATP provides energy for muscle contractions. Importantly, your body can get energy from ATP very quickly, whilst other sources of energy such as carbohydrates and fat are available they take longer to convert into a useable energy source. For activities such as weight lifting or sprinting, your muscles must contract hard and fast and therefore need a quick source of energy. This immediate energy comes from ATP.
For ATP to provide the energy for muscle contractions it must be broken down into two simpler chemicals ADP (adenosine di-phosphate) and inorganic phosphate. This process of ATP turning into ADP releases the energy that gives your muscles the ability to contract. Sadly, your muscles are limited to about 10-15 seconds worth of ATP and maximum exertion. ADP can not be used in its current state to create more energy for your muscles.
This is where the creatine comes in. The majority of Creatine is stored in your muscle cells as creatine phosphate (CP). CP “donates” its phosphate to ADP in your body and recycles ADP back into the ATP. This ATP can then provide energy to fuel muscle contractions, just what you want.
Creatine also has a secondary effect that is far form unpleasant. Cell volumisation. Creatine phosphate is soluble in water and when stored in your muscle cells will draw in additional fluid via osmosis, making your muscles bigger!!
All in all some great claims for the benefits of taking creatine, but does it “work”? Lets look at some evidence:
“Increases in muscle fibre hypertrophy and myosin heavy chain expression have been observed with creatine supplementation. Creatine supplementation increases acute weightlifting performance and training volume, which may allow for greater overload and adaptations to training. Creatine supplementation may also induce a cellular swelling in muscle cells, which in turn may affect carbohydrate and protein metabolism.” Nutrition. 2004 Jul-Aug;20(7-8):609-14.Scientific basis and practical aspects of creatine supplementation for athletes.Volek JS, Rawson ES.Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, Connecticut 06269, USA. jeff.volek@uconn.edu
“Creatine supplementation amplifies the hypertrophic (muscle growth) response to resistance training, although some individuals may not respond positively. Locally produced muscle growth factors are upregulated during creatine supplementation, which contributes to increase the responsiveness of muscle cells to intensive training stimuli.” J Musculoskelet Neuronal Interact. 2004 Jun;4(2):165-74. Making muscles "stronger": exercise, nutrition, drugs. Aagaard P.
“By increasing intracellular creatine content, oral creatine ingestion conceivably stimulates operation of the creatine kinase (CK)/phosphocreatine (PCr) system, which in turn facilitates muscle relaxation. Furthermore, evidence is accumulating to suggest that creatine supplementation can beneficially impact on muscle protein and glycogen synthesis. Thus, muscle hypertrophy and glycogen supercompensation are candidate factors to explain the ergogenic potential of creatine ingestion.” Can J Appl Physiol. 2001;26 Suppl:S79-102.Creatine supplementation: exploring the role of the creatine kinase/phosphocreatine system in human muscle.
Hespel P, Eijnde BO, Derave W, Richter EA.
So there is fact behind the claims of increased size and strength.
Creatine Part 2. The Myths
-------------------------------------------------
We have established there is fact behind the claims of increased size and strength. What about some of the other claims you may have heard about creatine from less reputable sources (medieval gym rats who have read very little other than the numbers on the plates!!)
Myth Number One:
Creatine causes acne/stunts growth/makes you impotent/does all the other nasty things associated with anabolic steroids or hormone altering products.
Short-term creatine supplementation does not alter the hormonal response to resistance training! That is not just my answer but also the title of an article in the journal Medical Science Sports Exercise. (2001 Mar;33(3):449-53.) by Op 't Eijnde B, Hespel P.
“PURPOSE: In this study, the effect of short-term creatine supplementation on the growth hormone, testosterone, and cortisol response to heavy resistance training was investigated. METHODS: According to a double-blind crossover study design, 11 healthy young male volunteers underwent a 1-h standardized heavy resistance training session (3 series of 10RM; 12 exercises), both before (pretest) and after (posttest) 5 d of either placebo (P, maltodextrine) or creatine (CR; 20 g.d-1, 5 d) supplementation. A 5-wk washout period separated the treatments. Thirty minutes before each training session, CR subjects ingested 10 g of creatine monohydrate (CR) while P subjects received placebo. Venous blood was sampled before, immediately after, and 30 and 60 min after the training session. RESULTS: The exercise-induced increase (P < 0.05) of serum growth hormone was not altered by acute creatine intake and was similar in P and CR. The weight training session, either or not in conjunction with acute or chronic creatine intake, did not significantly impact on serum testosterone. However, serum cortisol during recovery tended to be higher in CR than in P. CONCLUSION: It is concluded that short-term creatine supplementation does not alter the responses of growth hormone, testosterone, and cortisol to a single bout of heavy resistance training.
Bam! Science 1, Misinformation 0.
Myth Number Two:
Creatine will give you cancer.
This rumour sprung up after a combination of some of the worst French journalism and pseudo “science”, EVER.
Dr Jean-Louis Bertha, the food and safety expert at AFSSA provided the following research regarding creatine supplements increasing the risk of cancer.
Laser Reutersward, A., Skog, K., Jagerstad, M. 1987. Mutagenicity of pan-fried bovine tissues in relation to their content of creatine, creatinine, monosaccharides and free amino acids. Food Chem. Toxicol 25: 755-762.
Anari M.R., Josephy P.D., Henry T., O'Brien P.J. 1997. Hydrogen peroxide supports human and rat cytochrone P-450 1A2-catalyzed 2-amino-3-methylimidazo (4 5-f) quinoline bioactivation to mutagenic metabolites: significance of cytochrome P-450 peroxygenase. Chem Res Toxicol 10: 582-588.
Felton J.S., Gentile J.M. 1997 Special issue "Mutagenic: carcinogenic N-substituted aryl compounds". Muta Res 376: 1-272.
Hammons G.J., Milton D., Stepps K., Guengerich F.P., Tukey R.H., Kadlubar F.F. 1997. Metabolism of carcinogenic heterocyclic and aromatic amines by recombinant human cytochrome P450 enzymes. Carcinogenesis. 18: 851-854.
Wyss, M., Kaddurah-Daouk, R. 2000. Creatine and creatinine metabolism. Physiol Rev 80: 1107-1125.
If you read these reports, it is clear that they have nothing to do with creatine supplementation increasing the risk of cancer. These reports don't even mention the matter. In fact, these reports have nothing to do with creatine supplementation whatsoever.
These reports actually discuss the various mutagens (amino-imidazo-azaarenes or AIAs) formed during the cooking (frying) of meats. Meat is a naturally high source of creatine. According to these reports AIA mutagens are formed when meat is fried at 200 degrees C for 3 minutes. (*Note to self, avoid frying my creatine at 200 degrees for 3 minutes!)
Incredibly, these research papers quoted by the French scientists demonstrate that these AIA mutagens are not carcinogenic as such, they are metabolically inert and must be activated by a series of enzymatic processes to exert any active effect (Wyss page 1164; Hammonds et al. pages 851-854).
Further examination of these reports reveal that the AIA mutagens were in fact generated from invitro (lab dish and model) experiments, not humans. Similar mutagens have been found performing experiments with sugars and various amino acids.
Incidentally, for those that love their steak and are truly concerned, not frying foods and using marinades and oil instead of butter can minimize generation of AIAs. A more recent calculation based on extensive literature review of levels of AIAs in cooked foods and mean food consumption figures in the US indicate an incremental cancer risk of 0.00001%. You were at a higher risk of being knocked down when crossing the street this morning. This is the carcinogenic evidence the French scientists are putting forward regarding creatine supplements.
By no stretch of the imagination could this data be applicable to athletes consuming creatine monohydrate supplements.
Not only are there no studies whatsoever indicating in even the wildest possible interpretation that supplementing with creatine could even remotely cause cancer, but their literature support for their statements does not even involve creatine.
Myth Number 3:
Creatine causes kidney failure.
Without citing any controlled research the French report warned of the dangers of kidney malfunction from creatine use and even attributed the onset of some kidney diseases to creatine supplementation. However, the French scientists forgot to mention the research conducted on athletes that directly assessed renal function.
Several studies demonstrate creatine supplementation does not increase or alter glomerular filtration rates or any indices of renal and liver function for that matter. Also, long-term creatine supplementation (up to 5 years) does not impair the kidney function of athletes in any way.
Long-term research with athletes using creatine supplements shows their creatinine (the waste product which excess creatine is broken down into) levels stay within a normal, healthy range. (Just the same as people not using creatine). These studies examined glomerular filtration, tubular reabsorption and glomerular membrane permeability and none were affected by taking creatine supplements in real-life dosages that are used by athletes (20 grams a day for 5 days, then 3 to 10 grams every day there after).
So where did this rumour spring from?
In 1998, a single case report published by two British nephrologists in the journal Lancet documented the case of a 25-year-old man with an 8-year history of focal segmental glomerular scleosis (a chronic renal condition) with frequently relapsing corticosteroid-responsive nephrotic syndrome. The man was also being treated with cyclosporin, an immunosuppressive drug that is well known for its nephrotoxicity. He started taking a creatine supplement, 15 grams a day for 7 days, and then 2 grams a day for 7 weeks. His glomerular filtration rate dropped by 50% but returned to normal upon cessation of the creatine supplement.
Three days after this publication the French sports newspaper L'Equipe reported that creatine is dangerous for the kidneys in anyone that uses it. This "news" was then taken up by several other European newspapers that claimed creatine induces renal and liver malfunction and even death. Completely untrue.
Myth Number 4
Creatine causes cramping and heat stress.
There have been reports of muscular stiffness, strains, and cramping in athletes taking creatine. However, in controlled studies the evidence shows that creatine supplementation does not cause muscular dysfunction and/or complication in healthy people or patients with various neuromuscular diseases. In fact, one recent study went so far as attempting to induce cramping in athletes by exercising them to varying degrees of dehydration. No differences were reported between those taking creatine and those taking a placebo. This study clearly demonstrated that there was no greater incidence of cramping associated with creatine use in athletes even under various dehydrated states.
Back to your original questions.
1. What is your training regime? More importantly, what are you trying to acheive?
2. Using creatine will give you a slight bloat. I use pretty large amounts (>25g per day) when I use it, and I blow up quite a bit (~5kg). The water retention is lost when you go off it. It shouldn't be that much anyway if you're using the recommended amounts.
3. Creatine DOES NOT effect your mood. Anyone who tells you that is straight up lying.
Stupid question time:
Whats that? Do you have an example? Why that and not the pure powder stuff? Such as this:
http://www.purenutrition.com.au/products.php
(at the bottom)
Mirconised creatine monohydrate like the one in your link is the stuff you want.
No idea what reebz is talking about. I certainley hope he's not talking about creatine serum, which is totally useless and is just excreeted by the body as creatanine in the urine. Creatine serum - http://www.agestop.net/Agestop/product_detail.aspx?PID=19
Mirconised creatine monohydrate like the one in your link is the stuff you want.
No idea what reebz is talking about. I certainley hope he's not talking about creatine serum, which is totally useless and is just excreeted by the body as creatanine in the urine. Creatine serum - http://www.agestop.net/Agestop/product_detail.aspx?PID=19
No, I'm not talking about serum.
There are a few kinds of creatine: Monohydrate, Phosphate and Citrate.
Monohydrate - is generally the most popular, you could consider this "pure" creatine.
Phosphate - is pre-bonded creatine phosphate. If you read DMPM's post, you know that after a muscle contraction has occurred, one of adenosine tri-phosphate's phosphates breaks off and becomes adenosine di-phosphate and requires creatine phosphate for it be changed back into ATP, so it can be used as energy once more. You would think that this form of creatine would be better but it's only as effective as the others.
Citrate - It's more water soluble, so you absorb it faster, but contains less pure creatine per gram than the other forms, so it's not the best.
The two types of creatine I was talking about in my other post were both creatine monohydrate.
They generally come as creatine and creatine with addatives, also known as "fillers". Generally, the fillers are beneficial, things like taurine, dextrose, AKG or carbs. The one without a lot of additives (or additives that are more specifically geared toward weight lifting) are generally used by loading, sustaining, then off for a month. Rinse and repeat.
The ones with addatives, like carbs, are usually taken before, sipped during and after your workout. This is what I recommended you should get since you are doing martial arts and other sustained activities (although anerobic in bursts, but I'm guessing you do them for an extended amount of time).
In regards to DMPM's article, whilst it does provide a lot of factual information, I think it's easy to see that it is very pro-creatine off the bat.
While I do take creatine myself, it's not a decision you should make based on internet articles like that. Do your own reasearch, or what even better, speak to your local GP. I did and he even helped me choose other suppliments that were right for me.
First timer on creatine myself...
This is the one I take:
http://bodybuilding.com/store/bsn/cell.html
In addition to what has already been said, I get best results from creatine by cycling it. Some people prefer to take it all year round, but I just like the occasional boost when I decide to do a bit more bulking.
Yep, cycling is the best method.
Your body naturally produces creatine, so if you are taking it non-stop, your body will get lazy and produce less.
You got a reference for that? Or is it just something you heard? I would love to know how long it takes for your body to slacken off on its production, and to what degree.
just cycle it n dont fall for the marketing bullshit. i think prolabs is the cheapey, you get a fukload and it does the job just the same as all the other fancy named ones..
Korsion
03-Apr-06, 01:23am
It does... But Im mainly after things for short and bursty anaerobic activity (ie quick martial arts exercises) and for getting more strength/power for some exercises like that.
Ill also be starting again with fitball type work and pilates but not nessecarily be hitting the iron at all. Am I totally barking up the wrong tree in thinking for this stuff or not?
Try L-Carnatine
There's really little independent evidence that shows that creatine does much of anything. It's in red meat, so if you eat a lot of that you'd be getting a couple of grams daily.
I've had blood tests after 3 months of use and my creatinine levels (waste product of creatine) were fine, ergo, no kidney damage.
Don't believe the marketing hype, no one type is better than the other ...
Run of the mill creatine monohydrate (creapure) is the cheapest and as good as any of the others you're paying 5x the amount for (which is basically just less creatine with fuckloads of sugar worth 20 cents).
If you only have your creatine post-workout have it with your protein/carbs.
At other times of day have it on its own. Don't have it with sugar 3-4 times a day just because you think it will be delievered to your muscles more efficiently. It won't. You're just spiking your insulin for no reason and increasing your chances of becoming insulin resistant and fat. If you really want a delivery system to make you feel better then buy bulk taurine (like $10 for 500g) and use 5g of that with the creatine.
You don't have to load it for 5-7 days.
Expect water retention (i.e. 2-5kg weight gain which you will lose when you come off). But expect to keep your strength gains.
the gnc product mega creatine is probably the best creatine product i have used. it doesnt require a loading phase and it tastes quite nice. its pretty expensive tho abt 100 bucks for 20 sachets
I read an article last week which says you do not need to load at all... its a marketing ploy designed to make you use it quicker... by the time you start to notice the effect the creatine is having on your training you have enough in your system anyway... (i'll find the article and post it)
GNC mega creatine is crap, a gimic. Don't waste your money
what ever you do dont drink while on creatine. had a bad experience with my best mate when he was on creatine, had a couple of beers n the next minute he was tryin to fight me.. can make u very aggressive
what ever you do dont drink while on creatine. had a bad experience with my best mate when he was on creatine, had a couple of beers n the next minute he was tryin to fight me.. can make u very aggressive
Creatine is found in the body naturally.... too much does not make you agro or change your mood, regardless of if you drink or not...
Your mate probably just doesn't like you very much sometimes :p
well i dont use it n dont know much about it, but a few of my mates are on it n they never drink while on it because if they do they just get heaps aggressive..
probably because they need to piss every 5 minutes
I heard creatine doesnt affect mood at all, and to avoid alcohol because its a diueretic. Same with caffiene etc.
Some of you come up with the weirdest shit :lol:
Maybe your mate was pluggin testosterone as well as taking creatine lol Creatine makes me feel like tearing the walls of my gym down, not fight people.
What's the recommended dose on the stuff anyway? 10g per day?
Is any more than 5g overkill?
^It's dependant on your weight, 5g is the general dose if you're around 65-70kg. Then probably +1g for each 10-12kgs. It's a very rough estimate because it depends on your body too.
And I call bullshit on drinking + creos = agression.
Drinking while on creos is ill advised at any point, as has already been mentioned, consuming two diueretics is bad!
FlangeGasket
03-Apr-06, 04:28pm
:lol: what a joke
tuneman66
03-Apr-06, 05:21pm
ive always been told that glutamine ($3 bucks a bag at coles) helps the absorbtion of creo. its a sugary powder whish is used in home brew kits i think?
anyone else heard this?
I don't know if it helps with the absorbtion/transport of creatine. But whatever they market it for regarding muscle gain is bollocks apparently.
Effects of effervescent creatine, ribose, and glutamine supplementation on muscular strength, muscular endurance, and body composition.
Department of Exercise and Sport Sciences, College of Health and Human Performance, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida 32611, USA.
The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of a combination of effervescent creatine, ribose, and glutamine on muscular strength (MS), muscular endurance (ME) and body composition (BC) in resistance-trained men. Subjects were 28 men (age: 22.3 +/- 1.7 years; weight: 85.8 +/- 12.1 kg; height: 1.8 +/- 0.1 m) who had 2 or more years of resistance-training experience. A double blind, randomized trial was completed involving supplementation or placebo control and a progressive resistance-training program for 8 weeks. Dependent measures were assessed at baseline and after 8 weeks of resistance training. Both groups significantly improved MS and ME while the supplement group significantly increased body weight and fat-free mass. Control decreased body fat and increased fat-free mass. This study demonstrated that the supplement group did not enhance MS, ME, or BC significantly more than control after an 8-week resistance-training program. I'd supply a link but Marzy forgot to post it :P
FlangeGasket
03-Apr-06, 09:37pm
glutamine.....:lol: mate your thinking of dextose.thats used for home brew and its used to increase the uptake of creatine.
I thought the reason you arent supposed to drink while on creatine was because alcohol dehydrates you and creatine helps your muscle cells retain water, if you drink while on it, you are pissing your money down the drain.
Ive used it a couple of times, i cant be assed drinking so much water, but it definitely helps with extra energy, shorter recovery times and helps add a couple kgs and lift a bit heavier at the gym.
Spot on percy... lay off coffee as well
Jip Travolta
04-Apr-06, 01:44pm
What's the recommended dose on the stuff anyway? 10g per day?
I was using creatine a couple of months back, I used to take 10g in the morning when i woke up on an empty stomach, and then a further 10g as soon as I'd finished my workout.
I found creatine to be good while I was using it, I was lifting as well as ever, I had more energy at the gym, and even just in everyday activities I felt more energised and "pumped up" for lack of better words.
Main thing when I was taking creatine was to make sure I drank heaps of water, generally 4-5 litres a day.
Redl1ne
04-Apr-06, 04:29pm
creatine made me huge quickly, well bigger anyway
though it salso gave me this dirty acne rash on my back, might have almost look like i was on roids, so i gave ity up pretty quickly and won't touch it again
one_tjc
05-Apr-06, 11:58am
ive always been told that glutamine ($3 bucks a bag at coles) helps the absorbtion of creo. its a sugary powder whish is used in home brew kits i think?
anyone else heard this?
quite a few brands include it in their product you'll find
Creatine supplementation influences substrate utilization at rest.
Huso ME, Hampl JS, Johnston CS, Swan PD.
Department of Nutrition, Arizona State University, Mesa, Arizona 85212, USA.
The influence of creatine supplementation on substrate utilization during rest was investigated using a double-blind crossover design. Ten active men participated in 12 wk of weight training and were given creatine and placebo (20 g/day for 4 days, then 2 g/day for 17 days) in two trials separated by a 4-wk washout. Body composition, substrate utilization, and strength were assessed after weeks 2, 5, 9, and 12. Maximal isometric contraction [1 repetition maximum (RM)] leg press increased significantly (P < 0.05) after both treatments, but 1-RM bench press was increased (33 +/- 8 kg, P < 0.05) only after creatine. Total body mass increased (1.6 +/- 0.5 kg, P < 0.05) after creatine but not after placebo. Significant (P < 0.05) increases in fat-free mass were found after creatine and placebo supplementation (1.9 +/- 0.8 and 2.2 +/- 0.7 kg, respectively). Fat mass did not change significantly with creatine but decreased after the placebo trial (-2.4 +/- 0.8 kg, P < 0.05). Carbohydrate oxidation was increased by creatine (8.9 +/- 4.0%, P < 0.05), whereas there was a trend for increased respiratory exchange ratio after creatine supplementation (0.03 +/- 0.01, P = 0.07). Changes in substrate oxidation may influence the inhibition of fat mass loss associated with creatine after weight training. Here's the full conclusion from the whole study (which can be found at: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/6/2018)
In conclusion, subjects supplementing with creatine
experienced greater gains in 1-RM bench press, 1-RM
leg press, and weight gain than those using placebo.
We found that the increase in FFM was nearly identical
in subjects taking creatine or placebo. However, the
results demonstrate that individuals taking creatine
may reduce their ability to lose FM in response to
exercise training. The results suggest that creatine
loading may inhibit the normal fat loss that occurs in
healthy active men implementing a strength-training
program. Moreover, for the first time, it was shown
that creatine supplementation led to a trend for increased
RER at rest, a potential mechanism for the
impaired fat loss. These conclusions affirm our hypothesis
that creatine supplementation would result in a
shift in substrate utilization at rest toward greater
carbohydrate oxidation and less fat oxidation, indicated
by a rise in the RER.
Few interesting things to come out of that:
- Creatine does increase strength
- Creatine does not increase muscle mass
- Creatine inhibited fat loss in response to exercise
- Creatine increased carb oxidation.
Although the fat loss inhbiition seems bad it's probably a good thing because it meant that more carbs were being burnt (and an increase in insulin sensitivity btw) ... which is actually what we want a workout to do while dieting, burn more carbs!! fat loss should actually be occuring at other times of day and not during the exercise itself (remembr we do high intensity where carbs are the main source not panzy walking bs) ... so in actual fact creatine would aid in fat loss and not inhibit it, especially if on a low-carb diet.
white lie
10-Apr-06, 01:52am
If you were on a low fat diet though, i would assume you're going thru a cutting phase and thus you would more than likely get off the creatine to get rid of the associated bloat. Am I wrong?
If you were on a low fat diet though, i would assume you're going thru a cutting phase and thus you would more than likely get off the creatine to get rid of the associated bloat. Am I wrong?
Not really ... bloat is just water ... as soon as u stop creatine it's going to go away within a week.
hOuSeMuSiC
10-Apr-06, 01:51pm
i take 5g per day for about 6 weeks then stop for 2 weeks then start again...this way it gives my liver a bit of a rest
i've basically just started and have talked to a professional about what i should and shouldn't take. this way i wont have to worry too much
white lie
10-Apr-06, 02:05pm
So you should still use it when you're cutting?... I suppose just cycle it like normal
- Creatine does increase strength
- Creatine does not increase muscle mass
- Creatine inhibited fat loss in response to exercise
- Creatine increased carb oxidation.
.
if you are increasing strength, muscle mass will follow. that comment above doesn't make sense.
i would be interested to read some of the routines and goals of the people above who said they use it. I would be willing to bet that most are wasting their time with it. unless you are at a fairly advanced stage and have your training dialled in, why are you spending so much money on creatine? Most could get similar benefits just by restructuring their routines and diet.
didjeridude
10-Apr-06, 03:13pm
If At other times of day have it on its own. Don't have it with sugar 3-4 times a day just because you think it will be delievered to your muscles more efficiently. It won't. You're just spiking your insulin for no reason and increasing your chances of becoming insulin resistant and fat. If you really want a delivery system to make you feel better then buy bulk taurine (like $10 for 500g) and use 5g of that with the creatine.
There are several studies that show creatine loading with CHO results in greater muscle Cr uptake than on its own. Just take it with a small meal like a banana or a sandwich or whatever.
I couldn't find anything on Cr loading and taurine though. You gotta link there Marzy? (other than bodybuilding.com, I don't trust anything on those websites unless it is also published in a proper scientific journal)
i believe there is also a psychological factor involved with things like creatine.
Placebo effect, you think your taking something which will make you stronger and as a result might focus and push yourself harder wtihout even realising it. What do u know u lift heavier
I have just started back on the creo 2 weeks ago and dont know or really care whether its me or the creatine, but my lifts have increased after hitting a strenght platuea. No complaints by me.
First time i took creatine about a year ago it gave me terrible stomach cramps. No worries now though.
if you are increasing strength, muscle mass will follow. that comment above doesn't make sense.
Last time I checked food built muscle, not strength.
Strength athletes with weight restrictions don't put on size despite continual increases in strength.
didjeridude
10-Apr-06, 03:19pm
Last time I checked food built muscle, not strength.
Strength athletes with weight restrictions don't put on size despite continual increases in strength.You're both correct. Training stimulates mRNA synthesis of muscle proteins, food supplies the amino acids to build those proteins. Can't have one without the other ;)
Last time I checked food built muscle, not strength.
Strength athletes with weight restrictions don't put on size despite continual increases in strength.
if your strength is going up, your muscles will get bigger. It's the basic tenet of the overload principle.
There are several studies that show creatine loading with CHO results in greater muscle Cr uptake than on its own. Just take it with a small meal like a banana or a sandwich or whatever.
I couldn't find anything on Cr loading and taurine though. You gotta link there Marzy? (other than bodybuilding.com, I don't trust anything on those websites unless it is also published in a proper scientific journal) Having it with a regular meal is one thing, but using pure glucose and spiking your insulin 2-4 times a day is another.
p.s. I duno if there's specific studies on creatine and taurine. But all the studies on taurine itself indicate that it increases nitric oxide. Nitric oxide = wider blood channels = better blood flow = better nutrient and oxygen delivery.
I take taurine anyway. Good for so many things. Aids conversion of t4 to t3 in the liver. Is an anti-oxidant, helps with insulin sensitivity and cholesterol. So cheap when bought in bulk, crazy not to take it.
Good for making sure I don't get cramps as well :thumb:
Last time I checked food built muscle, not strength.
Strength athletes with weight restrictions don't put on size despite continual increases in strength.
Thats true.
didjeridude
10-Apr-06, 04:49pm
Having it with a regular meal is one thing, but using pure glucose and spiking your insulin 2-4 times a day is another.
p.s. I duno if there's specific studies on creatine and taurine. But all the studies on taurine itself indicate that it increases nitric oxide. Nitric oxide = wider blood channels = better blood flow = better nutrient and oxygen delivery.
I take taurine anyway. Good for so many things. Aids conversion of t4 to t3 in the liver. Is an anti-oxidant, helps with insulin sensitivity and cholesterol. So cheap when bought in bulk, crazy not to take it.
Good for making sure I don't get cramps as well :thumb:True, but who recommends taking creatine 2-4x/day though? The loading phase might require a scoop before and then another post workout, but you could ingest the maintenance dose easily in one serving per day - either pre or post workout as you already mentioned.
The taurine/NO/blood flow story is extremely complex and I don't think it can be simplifed as above. Nonetheless its pretty unlikely that healthy people would get taurine deficiency though because there is plenty in seafood and meat (and the body synthesises it).
The brand I used to take had:
4x5g scoops for the loading phase and 2x5g scoops for maintenance phase.
Most labels suggest you take it twice per day atleast ... 99% of people follow the label.
1 serving pwo is fine (you usually have dextrose here anyways) ... but then there's the other serving that day where people will try and create an insulin spike. And then on days off when u dont have glucose pwo, thats 2 insulin spikes you have to create.
Doesn't seem worth it just for the slightly better uptake.
I know you don't need glucose to spike insulin (although it does it best). I'm just going by what most people will try and do. Especially since the labels say to have it with glucose/grapefruit juice. Or the fact that most people go out and buy the brands which are like 10% creatine and 90% glucose, so they're fucked :meh:
Little do they realise that even a large serving of whey protein will create a good enough insulin spike :)
has anyone tried KRE-ALKALYN by greenridge?? I was given a sample at some vitamin store at the city. Haven't taken it yet.
http://www.greenridge.com.au
FATAL DOSE
07-Jun-06, 08:49pm
creatine mono is poorly absorbed by your lower intestine which is the reason you need the "load phase" this can cause nausea bloating and stomach cramps
i use creatine ethlyl ester which is absorbed extremely well by your lower intestine around 30 times more than mono, you also dont need any loading and the sides are almost non exsistant.
you also only need 2.5 gram 1 hr befor you train and then 2.5 gram after you train
i definitely could lift more on creatine. it's good if you get stuck on a weight and need a little help to overcome it. only downside is the size loss when you come of it. plus it gave me headaches at times....
one_tjc
17-Jun-06, 03:37am
i didnt get any of the bloated / other side effects, but to be honest i didn't think the minimal gains it created was worth taking it.
mckenna
23-Aug-06, 08:16am
I you were to take creatine once per day what would be the best time?
* in the morning
* before training
*after training
* other
please advise......
white lie
23-Aug-06, 12:34pm
It doesn't really matter if you have it pre or post workout. Basically you're just upping the supply in your body over time. Kind of like vitamins I guess, doesn't matter what time of the day you have them. Just don't have it with caffeine as you'll litterally piss your money away. I've also heard its a good idea to have simple carbs with it too.
lalaland
23-Aug-06, 01:12pm
as far as all the caffeine reducing the effects of creatine...i saw a study a while ago which i wil try to find.basically the study that was done back in the day where it all came from used farkloads of caffeine on the ppl who used creatine and then gauged the results from that.so unless your going to have about 8 cups of coffee before you take your creatine forget about it.its rubbish as far as im concerned.one cup of coffee before you train isnt going to affect or ruin your creatine cycle.
What about ~3 cups during the course of the day?
I make sure I have a couple glasses of water with my coffee though, otherwise I can feel the dehydration. Which could be purely psycho somatic lol
lalaland
23-Aug-06, 09:13pm
yeh 3 cups stil wouldnt affect it as long as your staying hydrated.why u havin 3 cups anyway:P
Thoroughly recommend CEE.
Tastes fucking terrible but it's bareable if you drink it with your nose pinched.
mckenna
24-Aug-06, 09:13am
what do itxrs mis with?
ive tried daily juice and soda water so far, both ways = terrible
well ive been using cell-tech, androbolin and 60-70g of protein a day for the last 4 weeks and my bench went from 6 x 80kg to 8 x 90kg in that space of time + i added about 7 kg to my frame, have been training for a good 3 years now and it was a great stack to get over a plateau ive been on for about a year. cell-tech tastes great to and its cheap if you get it from city health foods online website - easily the one of the cheapest websites around atm
Cell-tech is chat, full off dextrose and so expensive for what you actually get. But if your getting good results then by all means stay with whats working for you.
Personally i take creatine cee in caps. Even capped they taste like shit but hell of a lot easier than trying to choke down the powder. I take Omega Thunder (got it cheap as chips)
it has definately worked well, may get it again or im tossing up between going back to Prolab mono or trying out Universal Shock Therapy (think thats what its called)
Having it with a regular meal is one thing, but using pure glucose and spiking your insulin 2-4 times a day is another.
p.s. I duno if there's specific studies on creatine and taurine. But all the studies on taurine itself indicate that it increases nitric oxide. Nitric oxide = wider blood channels = better blood flow = better nutrient and oxygen delivery.
I take taurine anyway. Good for so many things. Aids conversion of t4 to t3 in the liver. Is an anti-oxidant, helps with insulin sensitivity and cholesterol. So cheap when bought in bulk, crazy not to take it.
Good for making sure I don't get cramps as well :thumb:
I'm taking a mix of these at the moment Marzy
i take two doses a day One an hour before training and one an hour before dinner. it has 4gm Of Tricreatine maleate and 2gm of Taurine 2g of Glycocamine. Definately does wonders in the gym, 4kilo's up in 5 weeks with 3 weeks to go. Don't care what anyone says this combination definately works. The belend of mono and dicreatine salts seem to prompte a little less water retention. In fact my stomach pinch test is exaclty the same from when I started.
My mate who reccomended it put 8kg's on in 11 weeks, on this blend, having said that he did still drop a couple of kg's after. but still pretty amasing gains. It is worth notong to we were also introduced to a very stict diet 6 meals a day with at least 200g protein and a fantastic OT training programme. The mix of diet new programme and very good supps really really works
white lie
25-Aug-06, 11:53am
Is that an "all in one" concoction? If so, who makes it? I'd be interested in trying it for a few weeks, sounds like there's good gains to be had.
lalaland
25-Aug-06, 01:08pm
Thoroughly recommend CEE.
Tastes fucking terrible but it's bareable if you drink it with your nose pinched.
what benefits have u found in CEE compared to normal monohydrate?
dosages? side effects? recommend any brands? cycle lengths etc? use any other supps that go well with it?
ben thinking of trying out a diff type of creatine so mite give this a whirl.
JocksNickers1
26-Aug-06, 05:59am
I used to take it (eppervescent type) about 30 mins before training, as it gave me a lift. I would then need to consume about 1 litre of water during the session.
As for coffee: It is a little counter productive due to Creatine increasing your muscles ability to absorb more water Vs coffees diuretic properties. But there is still a benifit from coffee's stimulant properties that are still benifical. What ever makes you feel best.
J.
what benefits have u found in CEE compared to normal monohydrate?
dosages? side effects? recommend any brands? cycle lengths etc? use any other supps that go well with it?
ben thinking of trying out a diff type of creatine so mite give this a whirl.
Strength is up a tad, but the main difference is endurance. I am doing quite a bit more volume now.
I haven't put on much weight compared to monohydrate, as CEE doesn't carry a water molecule along with it, i.e. no bloat!
I've been taking 10g per day (well 7.5 CEE and 2.5 mono), which seems nice. I was taking 20g of monohydrate and I got rather ill from it as it gathered in my gut and gave me some horrible pain for a few days. I will experiment with uping the dose soon and report back. :thumb:
In terms of cycle, I have never bothered with the loading shit. With monohydrate I always did 20g per day for 4 weeks, then 4 weeks off. I'm going to do the same with the CEE. Although I am cutting soon, so I might give it a miss then...
I used to take it (eppervescent type) about 30 mins before training, as it gave me a lift. I would then need to consume about 1 litre of water during the session.
Hate to burst your bubble, but effervescent creatine is total bollocks, like creatine serum.
This is a good article on creatine: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=768093
The only creatine worth buying is pure monohydrate powder or CEE. Everything else is shit.
Is that an "all in one" concoction? If so, who makes it? I'd be interested in trying it for a few weeks, sounds like there's good gains to be had.
The first four weeks i WAS on a product called Expand by Dymatize now i'm on V12 by san
Only difference with V12 is a little less taurine. Very very good for workouts
lalaland
26-Aug-06, 06:30pm
DMPM: recommend any brands?
Are you in London?
I get my protein and creatine from http://www.myprotein.co.uk/
Type www.sports-nutrition.net into the price checker at the bottom of the page...
lalaland
26-Aug-06, 07:38pm
nah im back in sydney now till later this year.
lalaland
28-Aug-06, 11:06am
bought 500g of CEE from the states for about 40 bucks so will see how it goes.the brand is higher power i think.
DMPM: recommend any brands?
Wild Bull monohydrate is pretty cheap.
And absolute creatine is relatively cheap
lalaland
28-Aug-06, 04:01pm
wild bull....haha i wouldnt touch any wild bull products...hell dodgey...you should see how dumb their reps are:lol:
Just started back on Creatine 2 weeks ago. I've put on 2kgs. It's not water I promise :lol:
One i would definately suggest, Cellmass!!! Stimulates the mind...Im on it at the moment and its working really well. Improvement in strength is clearly visible. Only thing, ull be going for a pee like crazy, lol, makes u piss allottt. But usually all of them do.
Forgot to mentioN, the MOST important thing, to use it in cycles, eg 6 weeks on 3 weeks off. Creatine destroys ure liver if you do not use it in cycles, No matter how much ur seeing results and wanna keep using....USE IN CYCLES!!!
lalaland
22-Mar-07, 03:26am
creatine doesnt ruin your liver.tosser.do some research.im pretty sure theres NOTHING to say it does
What about your kidneys?
I reckon it's bollocks as well.
lalaland
23-Mar-07, 03:49am
its all bollocks....innit?
creatine doesnt ruin your liver.tosser.do some research.im pretty sure theres NOTHING to say it does
Seriously mate, y u gotta b a kid and call me a tosser? Grow up mate. All im doing is telling him what ive been told over and over again by every once at G.N.C and Zenergise, aswell as the trainers at the gym. Maybe it doesnt do damage but thats what ive been told by many.
ABOUT CREATINE
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsSupplements/Creatinecs.html
Read under Precautions were it says "Side effects of creatine include weight gain, muscle cramps, muscle strains and pulls, stomach upset, diarrhea, dizziness, high blood pressure, liver dysfunction, and kidney damage."
They could be wrong. They could be correct. Every one tells something different.
white lie
27-Mar-07, 09:52am
The problem is that too many people don't know what they're talking about.
If you're known to have kidney problems, then I wouldn't advise using it, but if you're a healthy person, there are no actual studies to show that it actually causes any of the mentioned side effects, especially kidney damage/failure.
James23
05-Apr-07, 06:16pm
definetely recommend the creatine.. awsome stuff if u get the right brand
lalaland
05-Apr-07, 10:29pm
i just started a home made NO/creatine stack for the first time yesterday.Absolutely kicked ass.Have shitloads of energy still after a tough 5x5 workout.I will post it up when i get a chance
Have shitloads of energy still after a tough 5x5 workout.
Dude after a solid 5x5 workout you shouldn't even be able to stand.
Must be some rock'n formula.:bow:
alrighty. just finished typing out an article from some of my university readings.
written by the friendly folks at ASADA. i've attatched the file as a .doc file and hopefully some of you guys would find some useful information within.
isome of the things covered in the article include intake, best form, side effects and evidence for anaerobic and aerobic performance.
http://www.asada.gov.au/substances/facts/creatine.htm
a very small fact file thing on the asada wesbite.
markeee
18-May-07, 02:56pm
*bump.
where can i get taurine powder from? it's also in red bull i think.
dbushby
18-May-07, 04:54pm
Has anyone else tried N O Explode?
I'd read about what other users had thought about it on other forums, but decided to give it a go.
I can say it definitely worked for me! Got me into a great frame of mind for the gym. I've been pretty slack over the last year with consistency, but this seemed to help me with motivation. Massive gains in lifting and overall size too! It says it has creatine in it, and i was expecting to lose a bit of size and not be able to lift as much now i'm off it. Biggest weight increase for me was adding 10kg to db chest press!
I've added the product details for you guys to nit-pick over :P
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value†
Calories 30
Total Fat 0g 0%
Saturated Fat 0g 0%
Total Carbohydrates 7g 3%
Sugars 0g **
Protein 0g 0%
Vitamin B6(Pyridoxine HCL) 25mg 1,250%
Vitamin B9(Folic Acid) 400mcg 100%
Vitamin B12(Cyanocobalamin) 120mcg 2,000%
Calcium 75mg 8%
Phosphorus 500mg 50%
Magnesium 360mg 90%
Sodium 150mg 6%
Potassium 75mg 2%
N.O.-Xplode™'s Proprietary Blend 20,500mg **
(Contains A Patented Nutrient Suspension Matrix & Efforsorb™ Delivery System)
N.O. Meta-Fusion™(Patent Pending) **
L-Arginine AKG, L-Citrulline Malate, L-Citrulline AKG, L-Histidine AKG, RC-NOS™ (Rutacarpine 95%), Gynostemma Pentaphyllum (Gypenosides 95%), NAD (Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide)
Muscle Volumizing Creatine Matrix(Patent Pending) **
CEM3™ (Creatine Ethyl Ester Malate), Di-Creatine Malate), Trimethylglycine, Glycocyamine, Guanidino Proplonic Acid, Cinnulin PF® (Aqueous Cinnamon Extract), Ketoisocaproate Potassium
Ener-Tropic Xplosion™(Patent Pending) **
L-Tyrosine, L-Tyrosine AKG, Taurine, Glucuronolactone, Methylxanthine (Caffeine), MCT's (Medium Chain Triglycerides), Vinpocetine 99%, Vincamine 99%, Vinburnine 99%
Phospho-Electrolyte Replacements™ **
Di-Calcium Phosphate, Di-Potassium Phosphate, Di-Sodium Phosphate
Glycerol Hydrating Polymers™ **
Potassium Glycerophosphate, Magnesium Glycerophosphate, Glycerol Stearate
† Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet
** Daily Value not established
Other Ingredients
Maltodextrin, Natural And Artificial Flavors, Citric Acid, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sucralose(Splenda®), Acesulfame-K, Potassium Citrate, FD&C Red #40, FD&C Blue #1, Calcium Silicate
one_tjc
18-May-07, 05:40pm
using something very similar: Dymatize Xpand
it gives you like mini gurns all day, really odd and i'm feeling a lot more solid - i think most of it has to do with the amount of creatine in it though
just started on a new program so not really sure on the gains front yet.
dbushby
18-May-07, 05:56pm
it gives you like mini gurns all day, really odd and i'm feeling a lot more solid - i think most of it has to do with the amount of creatine in it though
I get the gurn feeling too! The only downside i've had with the N O Explode is that for half an hour or so I feel sick as a dog :meh:
Musashi make a Taurine powder. Hitting the clen? :lol:
I don't think it's cheap either, nothing Musashi ever is.
markeee
20-May-07, 06:27pm
martzy said can get 500gms for 10 bux. but no where else in the tread did it mention where :p
i've messaged him, but he's not replied. ebay has one place, it's 12 bux US. but 16 bux to post it :|
you are right about musashi OUR PRICE:$16.95 AUD for 75gms not 500. what's clen? i've just started creat' mon. i want to be 100k by the end of the year.
I have started a different type of creatine called Vitargo. I found that I just couldnt stomach mono, it used to kill my guts.
Vitargo has a carb with it that is supposidly specially formulated to spike insulin to assist with creatine absorption.
I have just finished loading and am onto normal maintenance. Even the normal phase has a massive dose size (75g) although it is easy to stomach that mono.
I will monitor my progress to see if its worth recommending...
Are all these insulin boosting carbs/supplements going to cause issues with diabetes with age? Im well wary of products that claim to increase insulin production.
what's clen?
Banned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clenbuterol
Not sure if you remember but Mitchil Mann (weightlifter) was busted for it earlier this year.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Sport/Drugs-investigation-nets-fourth-victim/2007/03/14/1173722553185.html
markeee
30-Aug-10, 12:54pm
oh OK (delayed post)
PandaMonium
30-Aug-10, 06:02pm
Creatine discussion needs to be moved to the 1980s thread... :geek:
oh OK (delayed post)
Bumping a three year old thread that you didn't post in before whilst, at the same time, posting links to nutrient suppliers in another (ancient) thread? I'm sure if I thought about it then the sceptic inside of me would probably have something to say :lol:
Ignoring that, this thread is as dead as the dodo... If people really want to discuss this then start a new one.
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