x-box exit left

[b-boy]

Microsoft working on hybrid Xbox project

By Chome On June 24, 2002, 11:43 pm

Microsoft Corp. has been quietly working since last fall on a device combining its money-losing Xbox video game console and with its digital video recorder, technology magazine Red Herring reported on Tuesday.

The publication also cited a source as saying internal Microsoft estimates showed that the software giant would lose $750 million on the Xbox game console this fiscal year and $1.1 billion in the next fiscal year, ending June 2003.

That compares with an estimate given to Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates in 1999 that the Xbox project could lose $900 million over eight years, author Dean Takahashi said.

Takahashi recently released a book, "Opening the Xbox," about the early history of the Microsoft console, part of a broader strategy by the software maker to move away from its reliance on PC software into digital entertainment.

Representatives of Microsoft were not immediately available for comment.

At the Xbox's cost of about $325, Red Herring reported, Microsoft loses at least $150 on each box, which retails for $199 but is sold wholesale to stores for $175.

That $325 cost-of-goods will come down to $225 eventually, the magazine said, quoting an unnamed source, though it will likely take five years.

By comparison, the article said competitors Sony Corp. and Nintendo Co. Ltd. were expected to lower the costs of their competing PlayStation 2 and GameCube, respectively, much faster, Red Herring said.

Meanwhile, Microsoft engineers have been at work for about nine months on a project combining the company's UltimateTV recorder with the Xbox, Red Herring said.

The magazine cited speculation that such a combined machine could be launched next year for a price of around $500, which factors in the added costs of a larger hard drive and TV tuning equipment.

The Xbox, PS2 and GameCube are competing for share in a global game market that is expected to top $30 billion in hardware and software sales this year.

All three companies make losses on their hardware products, but make up those losses with sales of higher-margin software.

[Caliber]

im intrigued by your thread subject b-boy: "x-box exit left"

what does THAT mean?

[b-boy]

i dunno its the 1st thing that came to mind!

[Caliber]

but what does it mean?

[NismoR31]

Xbox project could lose $900 million over eight years

it probably means xbox is not making any money. exit, stage left.

[DJ Fusion]

Microsoft have always known, and have been public with this knowledge, that the early stages of the Xboxs life were going to be a financial loss.

[NismoR31]

yes we all know that but a $750 MILLION loss in the first year is no small amount & should be a cause for concern.

& fuson - dont think i'm a die-hard playstation fan. i sit on the fence.

[Caliber]

cause for concern maybe, but hardly "exit stage left".

[djsimonmann]

What am I hearing here ? Someone defending Microsoft ??

They must own one....

[DJ Fusion]

Djsimonmann if you were around in the days when the PSX first came out you'd know that Sony faced this exact same kind of backlash against their decision to enter the console market.

Look where they are now. Now they're a marketers wet dream because every brand-conscious teenager chooses the PS2 as their console of choice.

Why? Because of the quality and value of the product? Hardly. Sony have ridden the coat-tails of the PSX right into this next generation and all the new kiddy gamers proclaim it the best console ever without doing a shred of research and without any hands on experience with the other consoles.

The PS2 has a lot of great games, but it has some serious hardware shortcomings. Give Microsoft a chance, they've proven that they're comitted to the market and they've provided an excellent platform.

If all the kiddy gamers don't wake up and realise that the next big thing is here then the Xbox will go the way of the Dreamcast, and it will basically be 1,000 years of gaming purgatory brought about by truckloads of PS2 shovelware being dumped on the market with no viable alternatives for the discerning gamer.

[redambition]

here we go again...

MS vs everyone else.

[Caliber]

not really. i think youll find its more like Everyone VS MS.. the company its "cool" to hate..

[djsimonmann]

Caliber, I've played the PS2 and the Xbox, both are good but I prefer the PS2 and I'm not a kiddie gamer.

The Xbox proclaimed amazing everything, the best sound, the best graphics, the best console.. I say crap !

The sound is as good as any other CD console..
The graphics are faster than most other consoles but the quality of those graphics aren't ground breaking.
The console itself is big and ugly.
The controller is massive, uncomfortable and fiddly.

This is why I don't like it compared to other consoles.. Just so you know..

Now for your comments re: it's cool to hate Microsoft...

I think you'll find the only people who do like Microsoft are the people who own an Xbox.. Even my IT department at work who use all Microsoft packages think they are crap.. It's because they are not a computer/software/hardware/mulimedia company they are a PR company that has a massive monopoly on the markets above... I'm happy for them not to get a monopoly on gaming consoles too...

Do you see where I am coming from ?? It's OK not to agree...

[sofu]

Microsoft are EVIL

[DJ Fusion]

djsimonmann can I question you on some points??

The sound is as good as any other CD console..


The Xbox is the only console to output ALL of its game in realtime Dolby Digital 5.1. The sound is far better than any other console ever.


The graphics are faster than most other consoles but the quality of those graphics aren't ground breaking.

No other console comes close to matching the Xbox in the graphics department. You only need to refer to DOA3, Halo and Rallisport Challenge as examples of this.

The console itself is big and ugly.
The controller is massive, uncomfortable and fiddly.

The console is no bigger than a VCR, and unlike the DC and GC it blends nicely into my HT stack.

The controller is big, but it fits my adult hands perfectly.

Obviously it takes a little getting used to, just like every other controller, but I find that the analogue sticks and far superior to any other controller, although the main button placement scheme could be better and like many other people, I love the controller now - it's terrific.

I think you'll find the only people who do like Microsoft are the people who own an Xbox.. Even my IT department at work who use all Microsoft packages think they are crap.

Well I own an Xbox, but I also work in IT so where does they leave me?

Of course IT workers are going to grumble about MS, MS causes our daily work problems but I don't like to think about where we'd be without them. Trying to synch wordstar with wordperfect with notes with eztype? Have fun.

Of course its cool to dislike MS, even if you don't have a clue what for.

[Caliber]

djsimonmann, i think if you search the web youll find it was Sony proclaiming that the PS2 was going to render "Toy Story" quality graphics when all we ever got was badly aliased images with repeatative, saturated textures because of its unorthodox (and quite stupid) design. Sony's PR is the worst of the lot.

The console itself is big and ugly.

this is possibly the lamest reason anyone can ever come up with. what kind of fashion queen are you? but if we want to get technical lets compare it to the PS2 which looks like a heater, has a well known reputation for both scratching discs when standing upright and sucking up dust through its fans that eventually screws the system.

im indifferent to Microsoft and their practices, but so far the Xbox has delivered on what they promised. its getting pretty tired hearing people rave on about "oh its built by Company X and i dont agree with their policies blah blah". as if you care. your a consuming whore like the rest. most people are influenced by brand names and market imaging and little more, hence the bizarre popularity of PS2.

if you *really* wanted to take some sort of righteous stand you should have refused to buy a PS2 as a protest against Sony's campaign of hype and outright lies. and dont think for a second that Sony is any less monopolistic than Microsoft. some of the blackmailing and bullying that was going on in US department stores around the release of the Dreamcast was disgraceful.

[MadMike]

Originally posted by Caliber
djsimonmann, i think if you search the web youll find it was Sony proclaiming that the PS2 was going to render "Toy Story" quality graphics when all we ever got was badly aliased images with repeatative, saturated textures because of its unorthodox (and quite stupid) design. Sony's PR is the worst of the lot.

Settle down champ. I don't think they could claim that...

Toy Story 2 statistics:
• Amount of RenderMan data files to be sent through the renderer....34 terabytes.
• Total storage for final frames...........................over 500 Gb
• Resolution per frame...............................1526 x 922 pixels
• Number of minutes........................................... about 75
• Number of Sparc 20's in Render Farm..............................117
• Amount of time to render Toy Story 2 using a single Sun processor...43 years of continuous use.

Rendering Toy Story in realtime is not the same as displaying "Toy Story" type graphics. What Sony DID say is that it could produce movie-like cinematics comparable to the image quality seen in Pixar's Toy Story. That would be the cut scenes folks...not the in-game action...

[Caliber]

they were claiming "Toy Story quality graphics" Mike, and they werent discerning between real-time and CGI at the time. whether their cutscenes today are even comparable to Pixar is debatable.

[peakin bunny]

:lol: kiddy's games

i think you will find that the ps2 biggest market is for gamer's between the age of 18-35 and they own about 96% of that market

[NismoR31]

MadMike's avatar suits this thread to a tea :lol:

[redambition]

Originally posted by DJ Fusion

The Xbox is the only console to output ALL of its game in realtime Dolby Digital 5.1. The sound is far better than any other console ever.
so the xbox is a sound system as well as a console?

the sound is only as good as the system it comes out of and the acoustics in the environment to which the sound is projected.

[Heathen]

just thought i should jump in and tell you all your whiney bitches.

why dont you just wait and see what happens instead of voicing an opinion based on the bull**** that PR companies, marketing departments and gamespy feeds you. I own both consoles and find them to be as good as each other in different ways because..... wait for it...... they are different. thats right lads they are very different. ps2 has GTA3 which i would rate as one of the best games i have ever played. but xbox has Halo which blew me away and as such i dont care to compare. so instead of bitching at each other and taking sly little swipes because someone elses is bigger than yours,

how bout ya have a warm glass of shut the hell up.

[DJ Fusion]

What the hell kind of lame input to the thread is this??

Someone says this:

>>The Xbox proclaimed amazing everything, the best sound, the best graphics, the best console.. I say crap !

The sound is as good as any other CD console..


So I say this:

>>The Xbox is the only console to output ALL of its game in realtime Dolby Digital 5.1. The sound is far better than any other console ever.



And you come up with this nonsense??

so the xbox is a sound system as well as a console?

the sound is only as good as the system it comes out of and the acoustics in the environment to which the sound is projected.

Honestly, did IQs just drop sharply around here? Has anyone even read this thread?

Heathen, no one here is bashing any console. Don't feel clever with the old, "you all suck they're all good consoles" comment because that isn't what this thread is about.

It's about people here getting their facts straight about what each console has to offer, and people here seem to have trouble seeing past their Sony blinkers to realise that the Xbox has a lot more offer.

Remember, there's nothing wrong with NOT having an interest in gaming, or a great knowledge of the inner workings of consoles, but if that's the case then think before you type in a thread like this.

[djsimonmann]

Originally posted by djsimonmann

Do you see where I am coming from ?? It's OK not to agree...

I'll quote myself DjFusion because you seem to have a problem understanding me..

It really is OK not to like something and if you would feel it necessary to try and shoot me down then feel free but I stand by what I said, the Xbox does nothing for me so I choose not to own one.

As for Microsft sucking arse, I'm sorry, they do ... I used to work dfor the company myself so I have an idea of their internal workings. I still don't like em.. or their console.

QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ Fusion
The console is no bigger than a VCR, and unlike the DC and GC it blends nicely into my HT stack.[/QUOTE]

:lol: Do you own a Beta-max ?

/me recoils satisfied that my work and trouble making here is done :P

[DJ Fusion]

It's PERFECTLY OKAY to not like a certain console, but please try and think up some valid reasons!

Hell, you don't even have to think up valid reasons, just say you don't like it and leave it at that, but don't spout crap about it not having superior sound and graphics to other consoles because people like me that DO appreciate the superiority of the console are obviously going to get defensive.

It's okay to dislike the Xbox, but these are pretty bloody poor reasons:

The Xbox proclaimed amazing everything, the best sound, the best graphics, the best console.. I say crap !

The sound is as good as any other CD console..
The graphics are faster than most other consoles but the quality of those graphics aren't ground breaking.
The console itself is big and ugly.
The controller is massive, uncomfortable and fiddly.


I won't go into them again; essentially its all wrong, but that won't change a thing for you because you've made up your mind.

Do you own a Beta-max ?

A joke about the size of the Xbox! Brilliant!:tripping:

Obviously it'd be slightly difficult to make it any smaller considering the processor, graphics card, hard drive, network adaptor and 4 controller ports but seeing as you have internal knowledge of the workings of MS you'd already know all of this wouldn't you?

[djsimonmann]

:lol:


I know everything Dj Fusion... well, in your eyes anyway :P

And I thought my beat joke was pretty funny :)

[DJ Fusion]

Well it wasn't really, especially considering that the average size of a BETA-Max video player is actually smaller than the average size of a VHS player.

[djsimonmann]

you're a narky bastard ain't ya :P

[MadMike]

DJ Fusion: Saucer of milk, table for two?

Caliber: Instead of saying "they were claiming "Toy Story quality graphics" Mike, and they werent discerning between real-time and CGI at the time. whether their cutscenes today are even comparable to Pixar is debatable."

Can you just provide some evidence? A press release? A Sony advertisement? An E3 review from a few years ago?

Personally, I believe they may have worded the information so the ill-informed consumer might believe the PS2 was a movie studio render-farm, but at no stage would they have compared the power of a PS2 to the power of 117 Sun Sparc 20s. Anyone with technical nouse would have the common sense to KNOW they were talking about the cutscenes. (and weren't the Final Fantasy ones great!!)

Don't get caught up in the he said, she said bull****. Use some common sense.

Microsoft, tradionally a software provider is attempting to move into the consumer electronics market. Rather than reinvent the wheel they went ahead with a largely PC-based console in this, their first foray into a new market. So far they aren't doing too well, even though they have MASSIVE resources to throw into this project... They lose more money on hardware than Sony or Nintendo, so how long will they suck up these losses?

Fact: Globally the Sony Playstation 2 and the Nintendo Gamecube are currently outselling the Microsoft Xbox. (If you really want I can dig up all the references again... *sigh*)

Fact: Japan, the home of Sony and Nintendo has consistantly provided the majority of the best console programmers in the industry. The Playstation 2 had 35 games on its release date, the Xbox had 15.

Whether they like it or not, Microsoft are playing catch up to cooler (Sony) and cuter (Nintendo) competitors. Technically advanced products don't always win the day... (cue reference to VHS versus Betamax).

Technically the Xbox brings a lot of cool new features to console gaming. Its much much easier to port games from PC to Xbox and vice-versa because the environment (DirectX) is almost the same. Unfortunately, for a lot of the games market, Microsoft means only BAD things.

eg. Japan is a bastion against Microsoft. Windows is NOT the dominant PC operating system in Japan. Gamers in Japan are fanatical and loyal to the likes of Sony and Nintendo.

In Europe, Sony is KING. Nobody comes close to the market domination and brand recognition in the consumer electronics market.

Geeks. Geeks hate Microsoft because of their business practices. Geeks hate Microsoft because of the way they stifle and monopolise an industry. Geeks hate Microsoft because Microsoft hates the open-source community.

I think the Microsoft Xbox will eventually do well if it makes the online gaming transition for the Xbox as transparent and fun for the end-user as possible. This is a key growth area in the next few years.


Note:

European Sales Figures
Xbox first three days (14th of March 2002) (Germany, France, UK): 10,000 + 10,000 + 48,000 = 68,000 units sold
Playstation 2 first three days (November 2000)(Germany, UK): 140,000 units sold
Nintendo Gamecube first two days (UK): 75,000 units sold

Japan Sales Figures
Thursday, 4 April, 2002
Since the Xbox's release in February in Japan Microsoft has sold about 165,000 units, one third short of its goal to sell out of its 250,000 initial shipment, Media Create, a Japanese research company, said.

In the same week until Sunday 31 March, Microsoft sold about 4,300 Xboxes in Japan, while Sony's PlayStation 2 sales topped 100,000 and Nintendo's GameCube sales reached almost 25,000, Media Create said.

[djsimonmann]

Loads of good info there Mike, nice one....

[DJ Fusion]

Real nice one Mike. You've just shown that you suscribe to the theory that if something sells truckloads then it must be quality. How's your Britney Spears CD collection going? Surely she must be more of a quality artist than Timo Maas. Do you need me to post sales figures for their CDs?

And don't tell me you don't like Timo Maas. I don't care, it has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to illustrate.

Nobody here is debating the fact that the PS2 is a great console and has sold loads worldwide so please don't feel smug for cutting and pasting stuff that has no bearing on the topic.

Everyone in the games industry knows that they were claiming real-time Toy Story graphics and that they haven't delivered, but that also has no bearing on this topic.

Even PSX IGN (http://psx.ign.com/articles/067/067138p1.html) got caught up in the hype.

I've simply come in to defend the Xbox against Simons baseless sledging and his poor reasons for disliking it. I haven't tried to convince him to buy one, and all I seem to be doing is beating off Sony fanboys who refuse to acknowledge that A. The PS2 isn't a very powerful console and it is hard to develop for, and B. Another company has made a much more powerful console with lots more features that deserves a place in the home of anybody who calls themselves a true gamer.

Why does every technical argument about a consoles potential power end up with some rabid Sony fanboy jumping into the thread and spouting off page after page of sales figures for the PS2 that have nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand??

[MadMike]

If you're going to resort to personal insults you'll find your time here short and sweet.

If you bothered to read what I said you'll note that I made points for Sony, for Nintendo, and for Microsoft.

Sales figures have plenty to do with the commercial success of a console. Will Microsoft continue to pump money into a console that:

* loses more money per unit that its competitors;
* will reduce costs more slowly that its competitors;
* is selling more poorly than its competitors?

They probably will. I think Bill is really that stubborn. :)

What's the point of sales figures you put quite rudely? From a consumer perspective these factors will affect my choice.

I don't want to fork out a couple of hundred bucks for a platform that hasn't proven itself yet. I dont think we'll really know how things are going for the Xbox until Xmas this year.
I dont want to fork out a couple of hundred bucks for a console that was released with less than half the gaming titles of its competitors release.
I dont want to buy a console that has the Microsoft name on it.
I dont want to buy a console from a company that is taken to court for unethical business practices.
I dont want to buy a console that isn't selling well.

The Microsoft name doesn't breed consumer confidence. I work in computer security, the very name Microsoft set me off into howls of laughter. The sales figures mean in the long run the other guys will be selling more games, attracting better games developers, and putting out better stuff.

In the end I want a console that has the best games, not the best hardware. I still think its too early to tell, and will hold off buying anything till Xmas. :) :) You seem to think I jumped on the Sony bandwagon because of the sales-figures. I thought they spoke for themself....

[DJ Fusion]

No Madmike, what the #$%^ have your sales figures got to do with my discussion of simons comment which was:

The Xbox proclaimed amazing everything, the best sound, the best graphics, the best console.. I say crap !

The sound is as good as any other CD console..
The graphics are faster than most other consoles but the quality of those graphics aren't ground breaking.
The console itself is big and ugly.
The controller is massive, uncomfortable and fiddly.

This is why I don't like it compared to other consoles.. Just so you know..


And so you decided that contributing some sales figures to the discussion would be a worthwhile contribution? Good one.

[MadMike]

What made you think my response had anything to do with Simon? Its all one thread and I threw my 2 cents into the ring.

Settle down and don't take everything personally.

I was offering my own reasons for not deciding on a console to buy (yet). Sales figures point DIRECTLY to the success of a console. If you have some other way of measuring success feel free to offer that opinion. I don't want to buy something that doesn't do well commercially because it means the best games will end up on other platforms. As I said before, historically Japan has provided the best console games programmers. Funnily enough, that means Sony and Nintendo.

If I'm not being clear about something let me know. I'd be glad to help out. :) :)

[Caliber]

haha.. this is so lame. this thread was started by some illiterate "all hail the great PS2" motard and now its become yet another "10 reasons why the Xbox will fail" thread. but ill humor it anyway :D

Mike its obvious your not buying an Xbox because your friends at work will laugh at you. and anyway, the PS2 is selling the most therefore it will always have the best games, right?

I was offering my own reasons for not deciding on a console to buy (yet). Sales figures point DIRECTLY to the success of a console. If you have some other way of measuring success feel free to offer that opinion. I don't want to buy something that doesn't do well commercially because it means the best games will end up on other platforms.

console sales figures mean more developers are likely to support a certain platform. sales figures do not mean more quality titles will be evident on one single platform. you only need to look at the piles of shovelware available on the PS and now the PS2 to illustrate this and then compare them both to the Dreamcast's stellar lineup as an example of quality VS quantity VS sales figures.

the other point to note is that most developers these days are spreading there resources over all three consoles. this is fast becoming the reason why exclusives such as GTA3 and Halo are such a big deal and sometimes the sole reason to pick up a certain console over another. however, have you thought that all three consoles this generation are all already well supported by developers and are all getting AAA titles? slow sales for Xbox (and GameCube) haven't affected the quality that is already flowing from both these platforms. and if this year's E3 is anything to go by (and it always is), the quality is going to continue.

[MadMike]

If sales pick up I'll reconsider. I just dont want to buy something that gets pulled from the market.

Mind you, if I get a good enough raise I'll buy one of each and whatever the hell I want. :) :)

[DJ Fusion]

You don't want to buy something that will be pulled from the market? Fair enough, but does this mean that you missed out on the 50+ AAA titles that the Dreamcast offered?

[nexus-6]

remember - apart from pure sales, the rental market for consoles and games, through video shops, is also huge.

speaking from that perspective, i'd have to say that the response to the xbox has been very positive. virtually all the customers (at my shop) are impressed with what the xbox can do, yet they (and we) are left wondering "what next?".

microsoft has yet to follow through on a fraction of the games they promised, making the console very untenable as a purchase. they rent well, and a few games are popular, but nothing compared to either the gamecube or the ps2, which is by far the overall favourite.

perhaps the Xbox has marginally better graphics, superior load times and equitable sound; but where are all the games? where are the extra bits - guns, steering wheels, etc...? it seems as if microsoft are playing the waiting game at the mo, which is leaving them far far far behind.

[Caliber]

microsoft has yet to follow through on a fraction of the games they promised, making the console very untenable as a purchase. they rent well, and a few games are popular, but nothing compared to either the gamecube or the ps2, which is by far the overall favourite.

i wouldnt say they have a shortage of games now. in fact, i believe they have more titles than the GameCube which has been out for roughly the same time. the PS2 didnt receive one title worth its salt for over a year yet people flocked to buy it on release. Brute Force, Blinx, Death Row, Sega GT2K2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Enclave, Shenmue 2 and Splinter Cell are all shaping up to be superb exclusive titles and all due out this year.

[djsimonmann]

Originally posted by DJ Fusion




I've simply come in to defend the Xbox against Simons baseless sledging and his poor reasons for disliking it.


Oi, meathead, who the hell are you to judge my reasons for not liking something ? :lol:

It seems to me that you are sore because your precious Xbox is not as well liked as you would have hoped, get over it, if you like it be happy with that fact and leave others to their own opinions. Goose.

[MadMike]

Originally posted by DJ Fusion
You don't want to buy something that will be pulled from the market? Fair enough, but does this mean that you missed out on the 50+ AAA titles that the Dreamcast offered?

I did miss out. Online and LAN tournaments kept me busy. :)

There are plenty of Dreamcasts for sale secondhand. Do you reckon its still worth picking one up?

[DJ Fusion]

Originally posted by djsimonmann



It seems to me that you are sore because your precious Xbox is not as well liked as you would have hoped, get over it, if you like it be happy with that fact and leave others to their own opinions. Goose.

Stating that the sound output by the Xbox is exactly the same as all other consoles is not an opinion. It is a fallacy. Sorry for trying to correct you before other people made decisions based on your incorrect facts.

Mike: Yes and no. I still play mine quite a bit, but it has aged compared to the Xbox. There's a tonne of games on it that were exclusive at the time such as Crazy Taxi, Ecco, Soul Calibur, Code Veronica etc that made it an awesome purchase, but a lot of these games have since been ported over to the PS2, GC and Xbox so I think that unless there's something on the DC that you really need then I'd give it a miss.

Having it when it was first released though was amazing.

[djsimonmann]

Mr Fusion from what i "heard", the sound was not any different than on the PS2, if it is, cool..

I'll take the slap on the hand and move on..

[redambition]

dj fusion = dibba.

[michaeldenna]

Originally posted by djsimonmann


:lol: Do you own a Beta-max ?

:P

that is such a gay comment to say dude. the way people describe the xbox as "huge" is so blown out of proportion. my mate has a xbox and to call it huge pisses me off.

Its a little bit bigger than the psx1. of course the gamecube and ps2 are going to be smaller, they don't have 8 gib hard drive in them.

forums everywhere its always "ps2 vs xbox, gamecube, whatever" its all bullsh:t.

in the end it comes down the game developers.

[Trunks]

Ill agree with that one, I like PS2 for this, THIS reason-

It has a better variety of games.

Not because it the "popular console"
or its cool to hate microsoft.

Nor am I going to go into hardware perfomance pull out your d*ck and measure argument, because that has proven nothing over the last couple of rounds of console wars.

remeber the Jaguar? or the 3DO? or console version of NEO-GEO?

even the Nintendo 64 lost out to some degree, even though it had better hardware, it did not have the games to back it up.
I'll concede Goldeneye, and the bazillion in house titles, but other than that Playstation had it all over the 64.

My point is, if there are not enough decent cosole sale driving games (see- FFX, GT3,GTA3, MGS2, Tony Hawk 3 etc on PS2)
then a system is not going to do well.

Whilst I'll whole heartedly agree that the X-Box is a technologically superior piece of equipment, it does not stack up in the games department, hence it wont do as well as the PS2 or Gamecube.

Unfortunate, but true.

[dibba]

Originally posted by redambition
dj fusion = dibba.

redambition = wrong.

Nice try though!

[westsambition]

erm. a joke?

dear god. he's back.

[driload]

heh heh

you guys are funny



dont you know that the BEST systems are the COLECO VISION and the VECTREX



suckaz!