Counting bars during a mix

[Bumpy]

Ok guys so ive been trying to this sorta thing whilst mixing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTXh4V4TwGg

but I'm finding that it takes to long to find where I want to cue the track and it usually passes the point on the other song where i wanted to hit play on the incoming song,,

do you guys have any tips you could give me if so that would be greatly appreciated.

[DJ D one]

Ellaskins got it wrong with the bar, 1 bar is 4 beats, while as I remenber his bar are 16 beats.

My tip is at 1 minute from the end a track at 128 bpm has 32 bar left, if you are doing classic intro/outro mix, it's best to drop at around 1 minute from the end depending on the BPM, it doesn't help much if you are on TT, but with CD it is pretty much just a question on setting your player to show the remain as opposed to the elapse...

Some will tell you F... it mix when you feel like it, in this case the most important point is to drop on the 1st beat of the bar...

D1

[Bracko]

4 beats to a bar, 4 bars to a basic phase (I've forgotten the proper term)

everything works in 4's when DJing. 4, 16, 32, 64...... count a few tracks out and you'll surprise even yourself.

[Bumpy]

To both above posts
Yeh I don't count like him anyway i just count 1,2,3,4, etc..

What I was trying to do before was set one song up and find how many phrases before the brakdown from a certain point (say the second breakdown of the song is where i was brining the next track in) and then set the next track to be the same amount of phrases before where i wanted the next track to start and I got this to work but then i tried it whilst mixing and tried it with a couple of tracks but couldnt get it.


I know some people with just say mix it in when you like.. but i was listening to Bekays mix the other day and it just sounded so good the way he mixed it.. it all flowed perfectly. But i guess thats what you have been mixing for a long time unlike myself

[Bracko]

count from known points in the track, a breakdown, a change in melody, kick in of the base beat etc etc.... you'd be surprised how easy it is.

1,2,3,4-2,2,3,4-3,2,3,4-4,2,3,4-5,2.......

remember 4,16,32,64....

go count, and FFS search, this stuff has been covered a lot before.

[Bumpy]

^^ Yeh i do count like that and i can tell when they start..

I did use search by the way but i didnt find what i was looking for so ill try again... sorry to be a pain in the ass bracko

[trenthalliday]

I listened to your mix dude, and to be honest its pretty close to where I was a few months ago....its that point where your almost trying a bit too much....before you compare mix's you should find out how they have made their mix, yours was done on cdj's im guessing, I havn't listened to the other mix but it could be a pro tools mix?? *Bekay if its not I appologise but as I said I havn't had a listen to it*

You can sit there and count bars and set up entry points and exit points etc but that just leads to losing the flow of a mix. My approach to mixing at the moment is to listen to the songs, memorise the songs, then listen to them more, then memorise them more, (it helps I drive 3 hours a day to and from work) then try and imagine what 2 songs will sound like together....then just trial and error, while of course keeping the beats matched.

But then again I mix tech/prog house (doesnt everyone...) so its a bit different I guess...

[Majestyk]

What trent said basically. Know your songs like the back of your hand so you don't have to count. This is going to sound lame but after hearing heaps of songs over and over again you can just "feel" the right point.

[Bumpy]

You would be correct that it was done on CDJs.

I'm a bit confused about what you mean that i was trying a bit too much? did you mean i was trying to hard to get a "Perfect mix" or something?

I see what you mean about setting up every entry and exit point about taking away the flow of the mix.

I guess I'll just go and practice with the 32 beat thingo

[Portal]

Do you understand why you are doing it?

You want both tracks to "change" at the same time, so they sound like 1 track.

If you practice, you won't have to count eventually, you will just know when the track is about to do something different.

If you keep missing the cue point, start the track you are cueing from any other beat other than the first beat.

That way you will have time to drop in the track, even though you might have missed the entry point. Don't forget you can catch up by speeding up the record/cd.

Maybe go out and watch some decent DJ's.

Hope that makes sense?

[trenthalliday]

You would be correct that it was done on CDJs.

I'm a bit confused about what you mean that i was trying a bit too much? did you mean i was trying to hard to get a "Perfect mix" or something?

I see what you mean about setting up every entry and exit point about taking away the flow of the mix.

I guess I'll just go and practice with the 32 beat thingo


I guess what im trying to say is practice....and practice....and practice...im prob not the best person to be giving advice as Ive only been in the game around a year now....and make sure every beat is matched!

[Bumpy]

Do you understand why you are doing it?

You want both tracks to "change" at the same time, so they sound like 1 track.

If you practice, you won't have to count eventually, you will just know when the track is about to do something different.

If you keep missing the cue point, start the track you are cueing from any other beat other than the first beat.

That way you will have time to drop in the track, even though you might have missed the entry point. Don't forget you can catch up by speeding up the record/cd.

Maybe go out and watch some decent DJ's.

Hope that makes sense?


Yeh i know that I'm trying to make the tracks change at the same time

Yeh i can kinda tell without counting but I still count just to get a re-assurance.

also it's a tad hard for me to get out and watch proper Dj's as i am only 17 therefor not allowed into club etc.. even though i have means of doing this I havn't yet.



I also just had a little play using the 32 beat theory and it worked quite well 3 times and another one i screwed up by hitting play on the incoming track after like 8 or 16 beats.. so the lead/bass of the next track came in half way through the other track if that makes sense.. Just gotta keep practicing

thanks for the replies guys

[richcur]

Always work in 16's and you can't go wrong (unless you're playing music in non-4:4 time of course, but you're not :))

[silvaside]

if you want to be lazy you can just loop stuff :P

[gamblore]

Dude, if this is how you want to mix, then it aint too hard on CDJ's. Just check what time the start of the breakdown, or the end of the bassline, or whenever you want the new track to kick in is when your cueing. Then check what time the bassline of the track kicks in and do some simple mathematics.

[Spectrum]

I havn't listened to the other mix but it could be a pro tools mix??

Do you realise how fricken' hard it is to whip out a DJ mix in Pro Tools. It's easier to use turntables. :)

[Bracko]

or ableton :lol:

[DannyDazzler]

dude hit the play button on track B straight after the second breakdown of track A and see how it goes. you just gotta learn ho house muxisc is structured and practice..u will son learn when to cue second track. yes im drunk

[trenthalliday]

Do you realise how fricken' hard it is to whip out a DJ mix in Pro Tools. It's easier to use turntables. :)


No idea never used it so I was really making a comment based on absolutely no knowledge whatsoever....:D

I just thought it was a matter of cut and paste....obviously not???

[jarrardscott]

pffft mix in on 4th bar 1st beat.
double bass drop, delay ftw :lol:

it seriously again comes down to whatever sounds good.

i have these two tracks which surprisingly, if i cue one of the tracks to the seconds high hat (on half beat), bring up the high eq, mid slightly and drop the lows (during the breakdown) sounds awesome bringing in the second track.
kinda throws everyones perspective out when dancing though :lol:

but yeah, just practice and practice, keep trying, you'll get it eventually.
just remember, when your practicing at home, try whatever the fuck you want, it may sound completely shit, but you'll never know till you've tried it. You may come across something good that you'd never thought of before

[blakenelson]

You should always learn to dj from someone who understands music. I got taught to make songs change together (most songs change on the 16th and 32nd) and I don't even notice doing it now it just happens.

[cowabungadude]

this is not something you can study, it's something that just happens after listening to music a lot. now get off the computer and go practice.

[DJ_Tingles]

if you've been doing it for a while, you don't even think about it and you can subliminally count 32 beats in your head and you just know when to start mixing in tracks
Practice practice practice!!!

[DJ Fusion]

I alwaysh count my beers during a mix *hic*

[Random_Kiwi]

Where you mix out of the track playing isn't as important as ensuring you mix it for long enough for the new track to either A) hit it's first breakdown or B) hit the point where the real meat of the track drops; the bassline, the melody etc.

Ideally you want mixes in phase, 1st beat to 1st beat, so you drop the new track as the current track comes back from the last breakdown, assuming it has one, then mix till the new track really drops. This is crucial in retaining the vibe on a dancefloor...there's nothing worse than a mix ending too soon and the new track being in the intro and being too hollow/lacking in substance for everyone to dance to.

Really though, this all comes with practice...eventually you'll pick up the 32 and 64 bar changes in tracks without even thinking about it...playing B2B with someone is great practice for this, as often, you'll be left to mix out of tracks you don't know as well as your own, but since they all have the same structure, you'll pick up the mix points.

4 beats = bar
4 bars (16beats) = section
8 bars (32beats) = half phase
16 bars (64beats) = phase

Something like that anyways...point being, mix your new track from either the 32 or 64 bar change as those are the points where new stuff comes into/goes out of tracks, so when the tracks are in phase properly, old track will ease off as the new track adds more.

But seriously, don't over think all this, it comes from the heart and loads of practice, not the head. Keep at it and suddenly you'll find yourself doing mixes where the new track drops into the breakdown/drops the bassline right as the old track finishes and you'll be like "Fucking YES!!!"

:thumb:

[richcur]

Harmonic, or key-mixing makes overlapping tracks earlier a lot easier and more pleasant to the ears as well... But that's a whole other topic (just ripe for the 'ole search function)

[Random_Kiwi]

Harmonic, or key-mixing makes overlapping tracks earlier a lot easier and more pleasant to the ears as well... But that's a whole other topic (just ripe for the 'ole search function)

I reckon this is something that you either have, and you can't explain it, or you don't.
Some styles are better for key-mixing (progressive, trance), while others, like some tech-house and techno, it's irrelivant.

[cowabungadude]

Harmonic, or key-mixing makes overlapping tracks earlier a lot easier and more pleasant to the ears as well... But that's a whole other topic (just ripe for the 'ole search function)

haha, the poor kid can't even count bars yet, lets not throw this at him yet :lol:

[richcur]

True on both counts :thumb: (pun intended)

[Garthyboy]

Harmonic, or key-mixing makes overlapping tracks earlier a lot easier and more pleasant to the ears as well... But that's a whole other topic (just ripe for the 'ole search function)


So true,

Several years ago when I first heard about key mixing I wasn't a huge believer
So i got two tracks in the same key or an acceptable variance of key and tried to trainwreck them.
Surprising it was really hard because they just complimented each so well......
Whole other topic as mentioned though

[Bumpy]

Hey guys thanks so much for the replies and tips.
I have been practicing a little bit latley and been pulling of some either shit, good, or great transitions so im getting the hang of it.. just pulled of a really nice one before.

[cowabungadude]

Hey guys thanks so much for the replies and tips.
I have been practicing a little bit latley and been pulling of some either shit, good, or great transitions so im getting the hang of it.. just pulled of a really nice one before.

nice one bro, keep at it :thumb:

[trenthalliday]

Hey guys thanks so much for the replies and tips.
I have been practicing a little bit latley and been pulling of some either shit, good, or great transitions so im getting the hang of it.. just pulled of a really nice one before.


Fuck its a good feeling when you pull off a mix blind, not drunk, I mean when you dont really know the songs but you just run to what you think will work, and it does.....fuck I want my CDJ back!!! aaaaagggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!

Oh well I got BDO tix....stoped me missing them for 10 min this morning....

[Bumpy]

Thanks guys, I am really starting to get the hang of this now :D

Just one last thing. I have a couple of songs that have really long intros before some singing starts. Is it best to shorten the intro to like 32 or 64 beats to make it easier to mix it? or is it just personal preference?

[Skerik]

just hit play when you hear a crash...

[ChAbIb]

^^^wtf

[richcur]

Crash.. you know, as in "crash-cymbal" ???

Lesson #2 from Drumming 101 :rainman:

[jarrardscott]

Where you mix out of the track playing isn't as important as ensuring you mix it for long enough for the new track to either A) hit it's first breakdown or B) hit the point where the real meat of the track drops; the bassline, the melody etc.

you could also drop the track just as the breakdown comes in (be positive that you have beatmatched correctly first, because alot of breakdowns will speed up and slow down and you'll ride the pitch to try and correct and only fuck up, dont do this, the breakdowns tend to run for the same amount of time and will drop in timing still.
you can bring in the second track in its breakdown afterwards and have it drop as the first track goes into its breakdown.
always works well if you are playing tracks with lots of sounds.
having them both play full blast can tend to be overpowering and sound shite. so one breakdown from one track, full blast from another can sound like bliss.

[Funkedub]

do you guys have any tips you could give me if so that would be greatly appreciated.


DON'T COUNT BARS!!



JUST KNOW YOUR TRACKS!!!





that's the short answer anyway

[Random_Kiwi]

^^^ In a nutshell!

JarradScott - mixing through breakdowns can go pearshaped soooooooooo easily...even for an experienced DJ! Often there's not enough happening in the old track to keep the new track matched to it...and I doubt this guy, being so new to playing, has his ear tuned well enough to have tracks pre-cued to perfection for antics like that.

I like to mix over breakdowns, play around dropping in highs or bass, or both...1, 2, 3, cut, 1, 2, 3, cut and a spinback as the track drops back in etc. But don't tend to actually mix A into B through a breakdown...when A drops its beats back, you better have them perfectly in time or it's instant trainwreck. I'll do it sometimes though if track A has a short outro and track B has a long intro (or if I'm just fucking around at home) but in front of a crowd, you have to be completely on your a-game for that stuff.

[ChAbIb]

^^ very true

[jarrardscott]

i completely agree, you have to know what your doing and have it spot on.
it wont work with alot of tracks
but when it does, it compliments so well and gives the track that is charging away so much more oomf and value. its fucking awesome!!!
awesome thing to do too is before the breakdown of the first track nears the end, (and before it starts building up to its next drop) loop it for however long you desire and start using filters and eq's slowly moving it towards a high filter till silent as the second track comes into its breakdown :rock:

[Bumpy]

^^ Yes jarrodscott that's exaclty what i was thinking of doing when i get better at mixing and get some equipment that can loop. But i want to learn the basic hand down before i move onto the more advanced stuff

[Dub DeLay]

DON'T COUNT BARS!!

JUST KNOW YOUR TRACKS!!!


Yep I agree, in fact I go one further, don't even get too stressed about knowing your tracks. I've had some of the best mixes happen the first time I've played a bunch of new tracks. Just go with the flow get into the music and feel it.

Also, when you are practising like this, you'll develop the skill of getting out of a bad mix quickly. In fact one of the key characteristics of a good club DJ is the speed they get out of a problem.

Just sit in the mix for as long as you can, listen to what's happening in both tracks if something cool starts to happen go with it. You'll have more fun. Counting is for robots. Too many DJs play smoothly but without any character.

Always take risks, otherwise you'll just be another boring nameless house DJ that no one remembers.

[jarrardscott]

^^^ agreed.
you gotta be unique. :rock:
fuck it, try what i do.
get an effects unit and try mixing tracks without beat matching at all :rock:

[Random_Kiwi]

try mixing tracks without beat matching at all :rock:

As in no pre-cueing to get them in synch? Just drop the new track, wiggle the pitch, bring the bastard in and try to hold it in time riding the pitch?

Above is great way to practice, at home, when no one is listening, Bumpy - you'll make lots of fuck ups, but you'll improve your beat matching quickly.

Drop, wiggle pitch back and forth till you have it close, bring it in and hold it in a mix for as long as you can...the longer the better, doesn't matter if the tracks don't sound great together, that's not what you're practicing. Try and mix tracks together for several minutes, if it slips, give it a nugde and just keep it going...if no one is listening, who cares if you fuck it up sometimes...long term, it'll make you a better DJ!

[jarrardscott]

no thats not what i meant.
but yeah that would be a decent way to practice i suppose. less distraction because you are concentrating completely on the one thing.

what i meant is morphing the fuck out of it with effects and bringnig in another track at a completely different tempo, whilst they compliment perfectly :rock:

[gamblore]

Or just scratch dropping? Works at all Blue Light Disco's, the kids go crazy for them!

[jarrardscott]

:lol:
could just imagine one of them running outside to their friends that missed it.


OMG YOU MISSED IT HE DID A "WICKA WICKA" it was soooooooooo good

[samwiseb]

This thread is really helpful guys cheers :thumb:

[Bumpy]

Yes i agree... with samwiseb

And I would also like to say a huge thank you to everyone who helped me out.. I am starting to pull off some really nice mixes now. Thank You Very Much