View Full Version : What is the industry standard when it comes to gain?
DJ D one
01-Dec-07, 11:21pm
I have been reading about it, but no clear answer, for some peak at 0DB, for some peak at 4DB...for some until you hear it distort...is it going to be "there is no rules"...well I guess red is bad...
Any rules in clubs??? Or it's whatever!!!
D1
Matty_neal
01-Dec-07, 11:29pm
from what I've noticed, most of the dj's in clubs seem to have the mixers maxed out until the red flashes every once and a while. BUT, they are ALWAYS lit, so basically the mixer is maxed out, but sometimes drops off slightly. seems to be what i've seen lately.
I wouldnt know about the "standard" but ive seen videos of people in clubs using the DJM-800 and there are like 4 yellow lights which is 7dB .. ..
But i remember people on here saying that you should set the input levels at 0dB and the master level at 0dB..
Spectrum
02-Dec-07, 12:55am
http://www.ryanadamsarchive.com/bertk/TurnItUpTo11.jpg
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/46/462/462565/SpinalTap_Edith_503.jpg
:rock:
Spectrum
02-Dec-07, 12:58am
Sadly, the standard I've seen practiced by the DJing industry is to push levels into the red. :(
the louder the better! as long as it doesnt distort and blow anything up!
Funkedub
02-Dec-07, 11:20am
not all mixers are entirely accurate at giving you a true indication of the level you're pushing out ... but as mentioned .. most DJ's don't give a fuk and will just push everything into the red
Pro Tool
02-Dec-07, 12:19pm
Standard gain staging practise should apply. Meters are your friend, use them. You don't need numbers to see that you've got a respectable amount of headroom available to you. If the meter's maxing, you're doing it wrong.
DastardlyD
02-Dec-07, 04:09pm
Well i played Icon creative summit this weekend and it had the whole festival style setup and one of the organisers (a former club DJ) had all the EQ's at the 7 o'clock position (the gain included) which was putting it into the red but the sound coming through the speakers made me think i was back at parklife 06 shaking my groove thang so i just left the gain where it was and mixed up the phatest sounding set i have ever played.
And i didnt have anyone complaining about the sound niether.......though it was to an open area arena so that probably makes a difference.
I normally adjust before I play so the loudest part of the my first track is at 0-2db and go from there...
I've seen internationals walk into the booth 5 mins before their due to start and pull the gain down on the warmup DJs last track because it was redlining so hard..
Sadly, the standard I've seen practiced by the DJing industry is to push levels into the red. :(
it doesn't help when the most common mixer has 5 red bars and significant headroom above "0db"
reproduce this on an Xone and you're in strife.
so i just left the gain where it was
Wouldnt you have to use the gain to make sure the input level on each channel was equal? aint that what the gains for?
jarrardscott
02-Dec-07, 05:02pm
I normally adjust before I play so the loudest part of the my first track is at 0-2db and go from there...
I've seen internationals walk into the booth 5 mins before their due to start and pull the gain down on the warmup DJs last track because it was redlining so hard..
shits me off when people redline.
im the same as you with the 0-2db.
i saw it last night. reno was warming up for joel mull and adam beyer in the laundry.
he started off his set fine, not too loud, we were all pleased it was at a good level.
then it got louder and louder and saw he was redlining chronically, as he got off and mull started, he dropped it down in the breakdown so it was back to 0db. rest of the night was perfect.
seriously. its not that hard to figure out, clubs soundsystems are set to a certain level for a reason. anything over 0db is making it louder then its set and pushing its limits either making it too loud for the punters or distorted
i constantly see redlining with only about 20% of the master up. :slap:
ThomasBear
03-Dec-07, 12:12pm
well I rad about this somewhere that a fair few manufacturers know that most DJs are idiots and will therefore leave a lot more because they know that the red bars will be maxed out.
gamblore
03-Dec-07, 08:28pm
the louder the better! as long as it doesnt distort and blow anything up!
Just because it's in the red, doesn't mean it's getting any louder. If you turn it more past the sweet spot, it's not making it any louder, it's just distoring the music more!
most DJ's don't give a fuk and will just push everything into the red
:slap: see above
Well i played Icon creative summit this weekend and it had the whole festival style setup and one of the organisers (a former club DJ) had all the EQ's at the 7 o'clock position (the gain included) which was putting it into the red but the sound coming through the speakers made me think i was back at parklife 06 shaking my groove thang so i just left the gain where it was and mixed up the phatest sounding set i have ever played.
And i didnt have anyone complaining about the sound niether.......though it was to an open area arena so that probably makes a difference.
Just because a god DJ does something it doesn't mean it's right. pushing you EQ's up is stupid, it's just going to gain the level of the channel up making you put the gain knob down further. If you had the gain up as well it would be seriously red lining. What mixer was it on? 7 o'clock on any mixer I've seen is at full cut???
My guess is it was the system that made that sound good, not the EQing and gain. Example: I went to a big club called ageha on the weekend, and heard some of the sweetest sounds ever coming out of one of the smaller rooms. Seriously beautiful sound! Looked over the desk and was expecting a seriously quality mixer (Urei, Bozak, etc.) and there was a DJM600!!! That things sounds like shit but this sound was beautiful! I can't even imagine what it would sound like with a decent mixer. Could be the same situation with your gig on the weekend, shit mixer sound but a killer PA.
I would say if you record it and listen to it it would sound shite! There are times when you hear a live set that sounds horrible, but I'm sure the system would be make it sound killer.
Wouldnt you have to use the gain to make sure the input level on each channel was equal? aint that what the gains for?
Exactly
I normally adjust before I play so the loudest part of the my first track is at 0-2db and go from there...
I've seen internationals walk into the booth 5 mins before their due to start and pull the gain down on the warmup DJs last track because it was redlining so hard..
This is how to do it! This is DJing 101, should be your first lesson when hopping on the decks, but most skip this step!
My mixer would be a good one to start because as soon as you go in the red, there is a fuzzy clicky distored sound which sounds terrible! It soons makes you give yourself some headroom!
brooklyn909
03-Dec-07, 09:21pm
Yes most mixers should never go in the red cause it will sound distorted.....Don't do it if you want to sound sweet, that is the policy. The systems in clubs are usually tweeked by dickhead dj's who do not have a clue. Listen with your ears....go and stand in various places in the club and check the sound yourself. If you have a good ear you will notice the distortion....very obvious if have a quick check what the Dj before you is pushing the mixer too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T318n3aAZI
think this guy needs to learn what clipping is and how to use the meters
Funkedub
03-Dec-07, 09:32pm
:slap: see above
yea ... i'm very much aware of the reality of the situation ... i was just highlighting what a lot of DJs do regardless
gamblore
04-Dec-07, 09:35am
yea ... i'm very much aware of the reality of the situation ... i was just highlighting what a lot of DJs do regardless
Yeah Funk, it wasn't a shot at you, it was a shot at the DJ's you were talking about. :thumb:
DastardlyD
04-Dec-07, 03:59pm
My guess is it was the system that made that sound good, not the EQing and gain. Example: I went to a big club called ageha on the weekend, and heard some of the sweetest sounds ever coming out of one of the smaller rooms. Seriously beautiful sound! Looked over the desk and was expecting a seriously quality mixer (Urei, Bozak, etc.) and there was a DJM600!!! That things sounds like shit but this sound was beautiful! I can't even imagine what it would sound like with a decent mixer. Could be the same situation with your gig on the weekend, shit mixer sound but a killer PA.
You are probably right on the money mate, it was a pioneer DJM800 and i've used this mixer in other venues and would never have been able to push the red but this paticular day i just left it where it was and it sounded sweet.
Perhaps, because it was also going through to the main console, the sound guy also had a helping hand with the sound coming through the speakers.
DastardlyD
04-Dec-07, 04:05pm
Wouldnt you have to use the gain to make sure the input level on each channel was equal? aint that what the gains for?
For the first time ever i took all original CD's (I normally burn my originals) and the levels on the tunes where all pretty close, though i did tweak the gain a little, though overall i left it higher than i normally would (which was the main point i was trying to get across).
Andrew Wowk
04-Dec-07, 07:42pm
I find most clubs know the limits of the mixer and I generally just ask before I start my set "where should it be maxing at?" and they will happily tell you. More often than not, the answer is 0 to 2 dB though (logically)
stockie
05-Dec-07, 04:57am
well the guy that runs UN will blast you if he see's his mixers in the red. And even if they aint in the red, he will come up to you and tell you in a "harsh" tone of voice "Dont make those LED's go into the fuckin red". When he said that to me, i was like "WTF"? They are no-where near the red.. Oh well luckly i stopped playing there.
DJ D one
06-Dec-07, 09:21am
This is going to be a stupid question, but would the amps in a club be configured so that even if you run the mixer at full gain, full eq, full master volume, it would sound terrible, clip, but actually not damage the the whole system, or could you actually F---- up the whole system with the mixer???
D1
DJ D one
06-Dec-07, 09:29am
Well, if it clips then it can damage the speakers...huh...
D1
trenthalliday
06-Dec-07, 10:07am
Do people use compressors in clubs?? Many years ago when I was a drummer doing some recordings we used a compressor on my kit to make sure and bits that went into the red were limited. Seems logical to have a similar type of thing to limit the feed between mixer and PA, that way DJ's can redline all they want but the compressor keeps the sound in check...?
littlebrains69
06-Dec-07, 10:40am
^^^Some mixers claim to have this sort of thing
Look–ahead peak limiting on headphone and master outputs
http://www.numark.com/dxm06
I just dono if they would do this in clubs because it sounds like it could affect the sound quality? I'm not to up to date on compressors and the technology used but if your limiting it, I would think the music would get flat when the compressor kicks in and so it would sound shit anyway? I need to be corrected on how they work though.
trenthalliday
06-Dec-07, 10:59am
The way I remember them is that you set a limit for each channel. When I hit a snare or kick or whatever too load it would just reduce the volume before it went through to the recording device. it didnt effect quality from memory.
Just a thought, any sound system instaler know any different?
ProdigyChild
06-Dec-07, 11:33am
^^^Some mixers claim to have this sort of thing
http://www.numark.com/dxm06
I just dono if they would do this in clubs because it sounds like it could affect the sound quality? I'm not to up to date on compressors and the technology used but if your limiting it, I would think the music would get flat when the compressor kicks in and so it would sound shit anyway? I need to be corrected on how they work though.
I actually have this mixer and its actually abit harder to read than most mixers...
This mixer only has 1 led above "0db" which flashes yellow if you are tapping into that range and then gets more constant/steady as you push the limits... No like most other mixers which have +7 LEDS after 0db.
The thing i quiet dont understand is the LED collumn in the middle of the Ch1 & Ch2 Meteres, on mine im pretty sure it says CUE... I get abit confused and just make sure the LED's for both Ch1 & Ch2 and at 0db or just a touch over.... I tap into the 0db ranger very easily even with the Gains set to 0!!!
Any1 shed any info on this?
littlebrains69
06-Dec-07, 12:53pm
^^ I used to have that mixer as my 1st (or 2nd?) mixer and so I cant really remember being too fussed about the levels - i honestly never watched them, gains were at 12o'clock all the time unless a track was noticeably quieter than another so I can't help you on that.
The meters on it are pretty stupid - being that there is only 1 yellow light over the 0db mark, but hey.... apart from that its an awesome mixer. And maybe with the built in limiter it actually works so you only ever peak at the yellow?
Spectrum
07-Dec-07, 12:52am
Do people use compressors in clubs?? Many years ago when I was a drummer doing some recordings we used a compressor on my kit to make sure and bits that went into the red were limited. Seems logical to have a similar type of thing to limit the feed between mixer and PA, that way DJ's can redline all they want but the compressor keeps the sound in check...?
Every club worth its salt will be using a compressor set to limit.
Still, that doesn't mean its ok to slam it.
Compression can steal from, as much as it gives to, the final sound.
TurntableTech
07-Dec-07, 11:06pm
http://www.ryanadamsarchive.com/bertk/TurnItUpTo11.jpg
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/46/462/462565/SpinalTap_Edith_503.jpg
:rock:
:lol::lol::lol:
http://www.youtube.com/v/akaD9v460yI&rel=1
littlebrains69
07-Dec-07, 11:55pm
^^^^ :lol: :lol: :lol:
TurntableTech
08-Dec-07, 12:05am
Do people use compressors in clubs?? Many years ago when I was a drummer doing some recordings we used a compressor on my kit to make sure and bits that went into the red were limited. Seems logical to have a similar type of thing to limit the feed between mixer and PA, that way DJ's can redline all they want but the compressor keeps the sound in check...?
Compressor on the input side on the system and hard limiters on the arse end. This is usually done by a one box solution audio DSP/speaker management digital processor etc nowadays.
This if setup correctly will protect a system till the end of time and the only way to really fuck it is feed it with a dirty distorted signal ie. clipping the shit out of a DJ mixer. What goes in must come out.
I go to 0 to about 2 but sadly there are many people out there that don't even take notice if this and when i play out and get on after someone they have it so maxed out that the red is not even flickering. :(
"why not make 10 louder" ......................................
.................................................. .........................
.................................................. ...........
.................................................. ...........................
.................................................. ........
"These go to 11"
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
littlebrains69
08-Dec-07, 09:51am
^^^ Quote of the century
ChemicalJames
08-Dec-07, 10:11am
"why not make 10 louder" ......................................
.................................................. .........................
.................................................. ...........
.................................................. ...........................
.................................................. ........
"These go to 11"
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
QFT. ROFL.
littlebrains69
10-Dec-07, 03:31pm
This just sprung to mind about gain and peaks. Has anyone noticed that all of the promotional pictures for the Pioneer DJM-800. ALL of them have it peaking off the charts. i.e. below. Go to the site and check it out. Monkey see, monkey do.
http://www.pioneer.com.au/products/pro_dj_products/Mixers/index.html
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/7895/djm8004ez.jpg
Every single other light's on in that pic as well... i'd say it's to make the pic a little brighter...
Spectrum
10-Dec-07, 09:15pm
This just sprung to mind about gain and peaks. Has anyone noticed that all of the promotional pictures for the Pioneer DJM-800. ALL of them have it peaking off the charts. i.e. below. Go to the site and check it out. Monkey see, monkey do.
Not to mention, effects permanently set to "FLANGER". :(
littlebrains69
10-Dec-07, 09:23pm
You mean you can turn the effects OFF flanger! :-O ......... all these years spent using flange and back spin when I could have been back spinning with an sweet echo......
At Korova Milkbar in melb, the boys ALWAYS thrash the mixer and slam it into the red, i asked them why one time and they said you have to, you gotta or it sounds shit. I forgot the name of the sound system they have there starts with "N" Niox or something. Its like 100 grand sound system.
The times i have been i have walked out after being in there all night and never had my ears ring. Quality sound system.
Not to mention, effects permanently set to "FLANGER". :(
I love that effect purely for the name
littlebrains69
11-Dec-07, 12:48am
^Try studying medical engineering. In mechanics its flange this flange that........ then when we went into anatomy it was sphincter this sphincter that...... I dono how I managed for so long
^Try studying medical engineering. In mechanics its flange this flange that........ then when we went into anatomy it was sphincter this sphincter that...... I dono how I managed for so long
Reminds me of that scene from the IT Crowd: "Ohh! Ok, we need to get this right. We need to stay calm. We do not want to go in there half-cocked"
http://www.digitech.com/products/images/TurboFlange.jpg
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