how LONG did that take to make?

[driload]

whats the longest amount of time you have "sat" on a track or even the mix-down... or perhaps couldnt get that synth just right or had one little melody to touch up but just couldnt get it?

speaking from experience this drives me nuts. a certain Superfluid track came out of the death of another mix, id gotten so sick of the vocal samples finishing this bloody thing that i cut the samples out and gave them to another band member and we started fresh

when is too long TOO LONG? when do you can a track? when is time too precious?

i have a working folder titled "old beatins" in my usual "make a decent name up later" folder naming method

anyway, this folder has sat on my hard drive since the last format, thats about 5 months. FIVE MONTHS and i have touched it once. all this track needs a few synths riffs and its ready for mix down. we've even got the patch sitting on the Supernova2 to play into it but here i am... typing away now instead of hearing that heart-wrenchingly overplayed "boomboom TIC ti bom bom tik" rhythm with its dirty bassline pulverising away underneath it



so my question to you again is this... how long have you sat on a track before finishing it... how many fade into obscurity, be you too lazy or 'fatigued' at the thought of hearing it again.... what tricks have you devised or disciplines enforced to "keep it fresh"??

i know i have my personal favourite tricks and disciplines but for now... speak up ...

[phunkdust]

3 or 4 weeks continuous... If I haven't got something by then I put it aside, and come back to it after a few weeks/months "rest"

[dks49]

I can usually get the guts of a track out in the first sitting. I usually sit there for 8 or 9 hours at a time in front of the computer playing away. In fact have just done that and not slept for two days. WICKED!! But it's funny, sometimes you work on a song for a while, and u get to a fork in the road. Then i save as and follow one idea. That idea presents another fork in the road and so on. I have shitloads of unfinished tracks lying around and not a single one I am completely happy with from start to end.

[digitalboy2020]

At the moment it frustrates the shit out of me but probably the majority of my tracks fade away into obscurity. i've got a real problem with finishing ANYTHING. I just get to a certain point and become bored with the track or the sounds or whatever and move onto another one. It's a real problem that i'm trying to overcome.

I'm also starting to get into composing music for commercials which is great because there is always a short turnaround like 2-3 days to a week before they need something. it's also easier because you invest less of yourself in the track cause at the end of the day it's not going to end up on your album, ep, whatever its just for a commercial.

yeah, so if anyone has suggestions for finishing things off let us here them.

[House of God]

Well im still sitting on about maybe 5 songs...and i know what im missing but just cant make it currently.

Shortest is 6hrs..and that got club and radio play.

Average is prolly a week or 2...

but you have to keep walkin away and comming back cause it starts to sound menotemous....plus in my house noone is existed about my music so there is little joy from those around me:(..

Kirk.

[compressed]

i work on loops - i build a main loop, and then try to create a track based on that. as such, if a loop isn't coming together inside of 2-3 hours worth of work, its generally not going to come together at all.

taking the loop and creating a track is tedious, as i find it less creative. so once i'm happy with the loop, that isn't even a guarantee that i'll take the track to completion.

i would hazard a guess that a track would take me about maybe...10 hours from the first step to when i've done about 90% of it. the final 10% can take as much as that again though, tweaking and making small changes.

i think i'd have somewhere in the region of 100+ tracks lying around on the computer/cd-rom that never got beyond an initial hours worth of work.

[EnglishBob]

I find that I can get most things more or less done in 2 weeks - and that includes quite a few late night monster sessions. If I'm not happy with it after that I get bored of it. You can only listen to one track so many times before you can't tell whether its any good or not don'tchareckon?

[kaossproject]

ummmm.......just wait for the right moment and flow with the go:tripping:

;)

[polarbear]

it's irrelevant.

if it's working, and it's not finished, keep going

if it's not working, throw it away.

otherwise it doesn't matter.

;-)

[Serotone]

I usually find it takes a couple of sittings to get a track the way i want. Its funny, i also notice the 'fork in the road' thing too..

almost every track i've written starts with something that gets trashed in two or three sittings time...

or like each track will have abou 4 parts muted that i don't like...or don't fit but are good for a new track

[phatboy]

On one well-funded 'session' as i loosely term it,

music track (drums, keys, strings, bass, live guitar, dj scratches) = 38hrs
vocals ALONE = 238hrs for (3 and 4 part harmonies and vocal solos)
mix session was only 6hrs.

It depends on the track, but if you are making a track for yourself
and you have a sense of structure, and some basic musical knowledge
and a good library of samples / synth sounds, a good solid track really should only take a few days of work and then leave it a few days b4 you mix it.
(also keep in mind....that a 'big weekend out' is not the best idea a few days b4 you do your final mix)

One thing i've been working on recently is, trying to make life easier, for example if you are making loops, make sure they are labeled, trunked and sitting pretty b4 getting carried away with anything, then when doing vocals
get a good clean sound to tape / hard disk before adding anything. then when you've done your session and you've got the track in your head, start your vocal comp straight away....then come back and listen to it, making sure all background noise b4 the take (lips, breathing, paper shuffling) are cleaned out of the way.

It all sounds pretty elementary, but all this stuff saves you time when it comes to mix stage, also properly labeling all your takes (in a digital environment) can b a good cure for baldness too :)

good luck with your tracks,

peas

phats.

[driload]

hey phatboy, are you reading Mixermans diary on the prosoundweb site?


hilarious, and talk about hours spent on vox!


2 weeks in a 1st class facility and they hadnt approved even one take yet! hahaha

[Tris]

Hey I'll tell u what...If I've learned anything from making music, this is the main thing:
Don't ever try to make music for hours on end! unless your awake and relaxed!
Don't try and make music when your sleepy! you'll be less creative...
Don't ever touch your gear when u have had any alcohol, You'll screw your tracks up reallllly badly.

The best time to make music is when your relaxed.

[phunkdust]

on the contrary, i find my best time to write tracks is after i've had a drink or two or a joint... creativity just flows...

but final mixing/mastering/any real studio work it's well and truly sober

[driload]

heh heh

i'll approach music in any capacity

living in close proximity to my studio i am afforded the luxury of being noisy any time i want, day or night, and generally leave EVERYTHING on excepting the main amp and the samplers (for obvious reasons). its very rare that i wont have the computers left on along with the synths and fx. the console mixers and monitors have Power Saving features which is nice


ive had File and Database Management drilled into my brain via the Con so even if i do screw something up during a drinking binge theres 8 billion backed up and properly organised files to refer back to

seeing as my choice drug is alcohol im able to indulge when i see fit but other then that i prefer to be sober with a large mug of straight green tea by my left hand

my setup is very ergonomic partly because im very confortable in my chair and partly because im lazy, but i DO prefer to write most energetic synth lines standing up, which is why i have my keyboard rack off against the far left wall, while the main racks/frame/desk and custom built (by me and my dad) rack shelving sits in the middle where my DAW is situated

even with such a handy and well-thought out setup i do get a little lazy at times or just plain stumped/bored with a track so i will sit on something for a while


i guess the biggest luxury i have is being in such an active small music circle as i am so the input of others usually gets things back on track. in my hiphop/breaks act the scratch dj is VERY hiphop minded while im more breaks inclined so we can usually spark each other off... plus he's WELL into the "green" so is handy to test new beats/bass on (if his head nods, im onto a good thing)

in the more well known breaks act im in we are somewhat... hyperactive and have some pretty spiffy gear between us so in between swapping audio "toys" and opinions we can usually keep things rolling and on-time. Superfluid as a whole has a fair bit of experience and pure silliness behind it so things dont stall for long, plus the 80 billions dollars in debt we were once with all this gear sort of makes us do our damdest to use it well


me left on my own though im a fair bit disciplined in my work ethic (that whole engineering job coming in again) but on the same point i do come under a lot of flak from my family, friends and ESPECIALLY my girlfriend for my obsession with the studio.

they call it social phobia, or studio addiction, but im just happy slaving over an MPC or Recycle or Sonar.... its mathematics and rythmic mind excitement... NOTHING feels quite like little successes in the quest to find the perfect beat, the perfect track, the perfect little tweak to that sample... maybe its a slightly faster LFO... ooo oooh maybe a quick filter sweep, hmmm up the resonance a little... ok thats good now maybe....

[kenada]

Beat programming a song into a 9 or 17 bar loop will usually take me around 6-7 hours. Thats with out totally nutting out all of the settings (theres always time to touch up patches etc.)

Then the tedious part begins, taking a loop, which is a great song as is, and making it last for 5-7 mins.

Arrangement pisses me off, thats the part that takes weeks. When I get really bored with a song, I usually pull my rack apart, and try to patch it together in a better way, adjusting sends, and looking for new effects which may inspire me to move in one direction or another.

I am working on a track at the moment, and it's near the best thing I have ever done, alas I am stuck at the break down, it starts great, but then.......

Ohh well, back to it.

[phatboy]

Hi Kenada,

Maybe your issue with arranging comes from your 9 or 17 bar loops ?
Music in 4/4 time sig, is much easier and feels better to arrange in even bar numbers, such as 4, 8, 16, 32 et al. (only reason i have left out 12 is that 12 bar cycles are usually used for 'turn arounds' and can, for dance music mess up dj's programming of your track in their set, as its not a commonly used denomination for straight up dance music)- but as with anything....experiment. and have fun.

just my 2c

peas

phats.

[meandarkdirty]

Generally speaking I work 10-12 hours straight on a track then stop, wait a while, play with other tracks and keep coming back. 12 hours is enough for a fairly solid start and I don't like to lose my train of thought. I also like the process of letting a tune sit for a while and seeing whether it still sounds right when come back to it fresh (or at least as fresh as you can get when you've been listening to the same patterns for 12 hours straight weeks ago.) I like to seriously mess with the structure every time I come back to it just to see whether there's another tack I could be taking.

This coming back process can last anywhere from a week to half a year.

[polarbear]

kenada - just because the indicator at the top says the loop ends at bar 9 doesn't mean it's a 9 bar loop - it's actually an 8 bar loop. the indicator is actually at the end of bar 8 (the beginning of bar 9)

I've spent any number of hours (largest stretch 27) in studios on any number of substances. I've never noticed it mattering that much what I take.

[driload]

wierd polar bear,

i was typing the same thing when i noticed your post appeared in the Post Reply page

so onto something else


kenada (akira right?) i think you might like to work on one part of your attitude to make music more FUN.

that is dont think of arranging as TEDIOUS as this will quickly infest itself and limit your potential. "finding a way to loop it for 5 minutes" is NOT a good way to write music.

this is just advice from experience by the way, so no offense or superiority implied, just some crazy ideas of mine...

anyway to break out of those ruts of, as you say, "getting stuck at the breakdown" you might like to try this, as simple/silly as it sounds...

...go for a traditional AABA song structure, or whatever, just lay down 16 bar and another 16 and a little break and another 32 and an 8 break then 32 out, with say three varying modal and rythmic variations. dirty and fast, conventions arent evil so exploit them if need be.

the actual psychology of having this ridiculously simple track arrnagement FINISHED (however it may sound) is quite profound. try it and you will see.... i tend to get a little Zen about these things but it has its merits

having the SIMPLEST arrangement gives you more room to enjoy the actual DYNAMIC MUSIC CREATION, and not think "oh i have to make this last for 5 minutes". in other words its DONE so now you have an ugly skeleton you can start feeding and exercising until its a music athlete! yeah hows that for an abstract musical metaphor!@!

another trick on top of the one mentioned is RECORD A SYNTH LINE IN REAL TIME FOR THE ENTIRE TRACK. instead of looping 4 or 8 bars of a synth loop, play it and record it in real time. obviously some bits will get shit but guess what youve done... youve just exercised your brain again in thinking about the SONG not the loop.

you will notice in the midi velocity and timings that of course things get all over the place or you played a few things differently and whatnot. youve established DYNAMICS. this is the energy of your track, subtle variances and nuances that take away the "boring loop" factor, also allowing for more "accident miracles" to happen.

now feel free to cut and loop bits and relax, youve taken away some of the self-imposed trauma from arranging

personally i LOVE arranging. i used to hate it but that was a motivation/discipline thing and reflective of the life i was living anyway

as an engineer however, i found i couldnt stay like this or id not keep my job. building discipline stuck in shitty studios editting shitty rock and rap bands for low pay for 12 hour days kinda made me a little more aware of what i could be putting into MY music, MY lifestyle and MY time.


longwinded rant over.... dont hate arranging because it really is 90% of the power of music. any monkey can make a loop and given time make good sounds, but its the modal power of a piece that really takes the cake

(disclaimer: im NOT including Hard House or other formuliac genres int his rant, being from a breaks and jazz background "dynamic" is a buzz word and to live by)

[compressed]

i think your disclaimer is important driload.

kenada, like myself, is mainly producing techno, and like him, i find track arrangement a bit tedious. i can't speak for him obviously (i've only listened to a couple of his tracks, and can only go on what he's posted), but the things you've mentioned aren't totally applicable to the way i put together my tracks...

making the main loop is creative - you're creating something new. taking the loop and making it a track becomes a task - you know where you're heading (the main loop), it just becomes a matter of "how do i get to that loop?". this is what makes it tedious - you know the end result, you know what you want to add, so its just an almost mechanical task of adding/removing elements til you reach the goal. i'm making it sound alot worse than it actually is to do for myself, there is certainly a creative element to it, but its not raw, try anything type creative work. when you do get the track down, and it all comes together, obviously that tedium was worth it, but its hard to see that when you're working on it, and i find i start itching to create something new, and abandone the track and write a new loop, and begin the process again. hence my comment earlier in the thread about having hundreds of loops lying around, and not alot of finished tracks to show for it.

the point of this? no idea. just an insight into the mind of one person who finds track arrangement tedious.

[djbc]

Originally posted by meandarkdirty
Generally speaking I work 10-12 hours straight on a track then stop, wait a while, play with other tracks and keep coming back. 12 hours is enough for a fairly solid start and I don't like to lose my train of thought. I also like the process of letting a tune sit for a while and seeing whether it still sounds right when come back to it fresh (or at least as fresh as you can get when you've been listening to the same patterns for 12 hours straight weeks ago.) I like to seriously mess with the structure every time I come back to it just to see whether there's another tack I could be taking.

This coming back process can last anywhere from a week to half a year.

god..that sounds familiar;D
& yeah... "rest" is the best... 'cause ev['ry now & then you come back to a track that you think needs heaps of work to discover it's nearly done:) ;)

[djbc]

Originally posted by compressed

making the main loop is creative - you're creating something new. taking the loop and making it a track becomes a task - ....
attempting to make a journey - not creative?...:meh: that's a bit of a shame :p

[compressed]

*ahem*

there is certainly a creative element to it
:p

[djbc]

Originally posted by compressed
there is certainly a creative element to it, but its not raw, try anything type creative work.
maybe try making it that... rip your loops to pieces...yyou never know... you may find some thing that tops the original loop, to drop to after the breakdown:)

[compressed]

i already do rip the loop to pieces...and i do come up with new things from it. but it just doesn't feel as creative to me.

and i write techno, its against the law to have breakdowns ;)

[kenada]

Originally posted by phatboy


Maybe your issue with arranging comes from your 9 or 17 bar loops ?




Yeah yeah, I know, I use reason you see ands the way loops are set up is with a start point, being bar 1, and an end point being bar 9, thus making a tidy 8, yes count em, EIGHT bar loop.

Sheish, how dumb do you think I am, 9 bar loops that shit would fuck you up royally. On a total aside i made a loop of Dance of the sugar plumb fairy by Tchaicovski (sp). It was a phat 2 steppy breaks monster, but the weird thing was that the loop was indeed 9 bars, that got difficult to work with after a while.



Originally posted by compressed

and i write techno, its against the law to have breakdowns ;)



Ha haa, Yeah my idea of a breakdown is to fade everything out for 1 bar and jam some strine synth then pull the mix back up and let it all hang out. Very short and consise but soo friggin effective - the point when you start to feel that techno is getting repeatitive, you need to refocus the attention of the listener. 1 bar is all it takes, hell even 1 cracker sound.

RICHIE IS BADASS...

[kenada]

Not every track is tedious, just every now and then I caome across somthing that just doesn't want to be arranged, no matter WTF I try.

Geez, peoples 9 and 17 surely you would have to "think" that I was referring to what I was seeing on my transport panel as opposed to the actual number of bars.

Bahh, this is BS anyways. LMAO

:D