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The loss of another young life at SLSA championships

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mischa21 +

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fair point Fewsion. but I haven't said it was safe. I wasn't there and didn't see the conditions on that day. Rather, I'm saying that people know that conditions change at each beach, every day. and I don't think this is a result of the competition being at a 'bad' beach (but that's my opinion - and it's not a qualified one, I appreciate that).

Personally, I think this horrible accident is more a consequence of the sport, vs a consequence of the event being at Kurrawa; which is what that report was trying to make out. I believe we've had these deaths because it's occurred during a competition which involves the greatest number of competitors with the most at stake. more people = more boards = more likely to get hit with a board; national title = more competition = competitors are more aggressive.

I know when I'm in an ocean swim race, I get hit in the head, scratched, elbowed, people swim over the top of you. But it's a race, it's just what you contend with. If I didn't want that - I would swim at the back or not compete.
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if surf wasn't dangerous you wouldn't need surf lifesavers, this point seems to have escaped most people who live in the unreality of media hype.
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It's a matter for the coroner now isn't it? It will still matter after the media stops reporting it.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fewsion View Post

It's a matter for the coroner now isn't it? It will still matter after the media stops reporting it.

Well if the coroner takes the risk averse position and insists they dress like Ice Hockey competitors it will be a perverse outcome, because the reality is SLSC relies on the competitions to retain competent surf lifesavers. They will bail on the sport and a bigger risk will manifest because they will lose a huge number of competent members, and they will lose ownership of certain values surf lifesavers ascribe to. I know this because I was a competitive clubby. It scares me to say this because the tribe of anti-claude glass posters will ask is there anything he isn't an expert on, but it's true.

It frustrates me the way the media consitently seeks spectacle over sensibility, and I see it played out in this forum repeatedly.
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You could argue that the slsc's are retaining the competent life savers and that those who are less than competent are drowning.

Natural selection at work yeah?

Surely you don't beleive your own words that safety vests will make competitors dress like ice hockey competitors? Seriously?

I would have thought that saving lives was the top priority with life saving. Even if a vest was a bit heavier and bulkier, if it saved lives and streghthened the swimmers by carrying the weight, wouldn't it be ok?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

I know this because I was a competitive clubby. It scares me to say this because the tribe of anti-claude glass posters will ask is there anything he isn't an expert on, but it's true.

It frustrates me the way the media consitently seeks spectacle over sensibility, and I see it played out in this forum repeatedly.

Hmmm, you've provided plenty of ammunition with a comment like that, but I won't join in, I think you're alright!

Anyway, the toughness of the competitors is a moot point once the bloke was rendered unconscious. So, half of the debate has rightly been about how rough the surf was and how difficult that made a proper and effective rescue. That's the issue with hosting these events at this beach it seems to me.
Weinertron +

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^ but these rough conditions could prevail (quickly, and without notice) at ANY beach. What is your beef with this particular beach? In fact, unless it was in the media, I'd wager you wouldn't even be aware of the beach or the associated surf competition that occurs there.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

Well if the coroner takes the risk averse position and insists they dress like Ice Hockey competitors it will be a perverse outcome, because the reality is SLSC relies on the competitions to retain competent surf lifesavers. They will bail on the sport and a bigger risk will manifest because they will lose a huge number of competent members, and they will lose ownership of certain values surf lifesavers ascribe to. I know this because I was a competitive clubby. It scares me to say this because the tribe of anti-claude glass posters will ask is there anything he isn't an expert on, but it's true.

It frustrates me the way the media consitently seeks spectacle over sensibility, and I see it played out in this forum repeatedly.

I read that the coroner made recomendations after the last death which were ignored, I suspect due to that the coroner will take an even more risk adverse position now
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Fewsion +

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Weinertron View Post

^ but these rough conditions could prevail (quickly, and without notice) at ANY beach. What is your beef with this particular beach? In fact, unless it was in the media, I'd wager you wouldn't even be aware of the beach or the associated surf competition that occurs there.

I wouldn't take you up on that bet because I'd lose. Does it change any of the circumstances though? I'm sure you have formed an opinion on the matter, I'd be curious to know how you have formed yours.

Maybe I could find some peer-reviewed paper to back up my informed opinion and that'll placate you?
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There is no need for peer review here, my friend, as this is clearly not a science issue, but I admire your tenacity.

But honestly, I don't know too much about the story aside from what I scanned in the article and read in this thread. What I do know, though, is what surfing involves. And that is a big chunk of risk. I don't surf in rough conditions because I'm terribly unfit, but there are people who do it regularly because they are fitter AND they are willing to take the risk.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there is a larger number of competitions at this beach as opposed to other beaches. Surfing accidents and deaths happen reasonably frequently. This beach has more frequent surf competitions that others. Ergo, common sense would tell you that despite every step taken to control the situation, that an accident could still happen.

Surfing = risky. The end.
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I was being facetious of course.

Three deaths of youths at this beach make it stand out for a reason. That's undeniable. Conflating risky surfing with surfing deaths everywhere in the country is not a fair comparison. If there was seriously no issue, there'd be no coronial inquests and there'd be no recommendations and everyone would be happy. This is obviously not how it has happened.
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This works out to be 1/10,000 deaths per Kurrawa competitor events. This is about 100 times too frequent on the basis of what is considered acceptable societal risk, but you can get those kind of figures as random clusters. You really need many more events to say that this represents an abnormal risk scenario.
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How many deaths were there in the whole country in similar events last year?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fewsion View Post

half of the debate has rightly been about how rough the surf was and how difficult that made a proper and effective rescue. That's the issue with hosting these events at this beach it seems to me.

Surf Life Saving is perceived to be the epitome of Australia's spirit. Its part of our culture, and has spread around the world, open to anybody regardless of age, race, colour, religion or sex. This same spirit forms the cornerstone of the ANZAC legend .

The segregation of races from places is a deeply offensive suggestion you have made. Offensive towards the many diggers that sacrificed their lives for your freedom.

You will never stop the boats, fewsion.
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Being overseas this is the first I heard of this, so let me get this straight.

One kid drowns during a comp and despite the fact that no one else had to be helped or rescued, the obvious conclusion is that the beach was too deadly that day and it's not just an accident?

Yeah, ok.

Or how about maybe, just maybe, it was an accident but because the tv and newspapers keep running shots of friends and family crying at the beach everyones heartstrings are being pulled towards outrage?
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you didnt get it straight
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4 View Post

Surf Life Saving is perceived to be the epitome of Australia's spirit. Its part of our culture, and has spread around the world, open to anybody regardless of age, race, colour, religion or sex. This same spirit forms the cornerstone of the ANZAC legend .

The segregation of races from places is a deeply offensive suggestion you have made. Offensive towards the many diggers that sacrificed their lives for your freedom.

You will never stop the boats, fewsion.

That was one of your better ones.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fewsion View Post

How many deaths were there in the whole country in similar events last year?

There are no similar events to the national championships. It is by far the biggest held at the same beach and competitors probably take more risks. But that doesn't matter anyway. With such a low number you can't make any kind of statistical correlation. Incidents often happen in random clusters. The fact is the biggest most competitive carnival is always held at Kurrawa so there is a bias that a cluster will occur there.

When you flip a coin you can get five heads in a row, but over 50 flips you'll probably get close to a normal distribution of chance. 50% heads and 50% tails. From a statistical point of view, the five heads you flip in a row are just part of larger random group of coin tosses. It appears meaningful, but it's just chance.

It's also a chance event to get knocked unconscious. People get hit by craft all the time at carnivals. Injuries happen at most events.

But you can't ignore people's perception of risk, and I don't think they will be able to hold the event there anymore. If there was a fourth death it would convince everyone, even though that would still remain in the realm of chance.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

Well if the coroner takes the risk averse position and insists they dress like Ice Hockey competitors it will be a perverse outcome, because the reality is SLSC relies on the competitions to retain competent surf lifesavers. They will bail on the sport and a bigger risk will manifest because they will lose a huge number of competent members, and they will lose ownership of certain values surf lifesavers ascribe to. I know this because I was a competitive clubby. It scares me to say this because the tribe of anti-claude glass posters will ask is there anything he isn't an expert on, but it's true.

It frustrates me the way the media consitently seeks spectacle over sensibility, and I see it played out in this forum repeatedly.

It's lucky you didn't make dramatic comments in the various recent threads about police "brutality" then, because you'd look like a massive hypocrite getting on your soapbox about media hype in this one!....oh no....shit you did exactly that! D'oh!
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Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

It's lucky you didn't make dramatic comments in the various recent threads about police "brutality" then, because you'd look like a massive hypocrite getting on your soapbox about media hype in this one!....oh no....shit you did exactly that! D'oh!

whatever... still hung up about that thread are you?
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Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

whatever... still hung up about that thread are you?

No I just find hypocrisy amusing. It's somewhat unbelievable that you'd think your point in this thread would have credibility given your past ramblings.

I may annoy a lot of people, but at least I'm relatively consistent. Make your mind up man!
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Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

No I just find hypocrisy amusing. It's somewhat unbelievable that you'd think your point in this thread would have credibility given your past ramblings.

I may annoy a lot of people, but at least I'm relatively consistent. Make your mind up man!

It's not my fault you don't have the intellectual capacity to differentiate between the two issues.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

It's lucky you didn't make dramatic comments in the various recent threads about police "brutality" then, because you'd look like a massive hypocrite getting on your soapbox about media hype in this one!....oh no....shit you did exactly that! D'oh!

how is this hypocritical? you are trolling twat
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

It's not my fault you don't have the intellectual capacity to differentiate between the two issues.

It frustrates me the way the media consitently seeks spectacle over sensibility, and I see it played out in this forum repeatedly.

Yes that was very specific to this one issue, totally not a big generalist statement.......cough.....

Hypocrisy police are on the way, hopefully they'll bring their tasers.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

It frustrates me the way the media consitently seeks spectacle over sensibility, and I see it played out in this forum repeatedly.

Yes that was very specific to this one issue, totally not a big generalist statement.......cough.....

Hypocrisy police are on the way, hopefully they'll bring their tasers.

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Dubz what on earth are you on about?

no actually I'm not that interested, just put a sock in it.
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