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Online shoppers stealing our GST (also, our jeeeerrrrrrrbs)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

But I think that is one of my points: not many companies or businesses sit back and think of it in those terms. The default position is efficiency is always the best option.

I'd argue that in general it is the best option as it frees the financial and human capital to do something else.

The distinction I make is that is for actual efficiency gains ie finding a better way to do something, not getting 5 people to work longer to do the work of 7.

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Geezah, not sure if you like Sci-fi but I would highly recommend you read "Slow Lightning" by Jack Mcdevitt.

It is basically a noir detective novel set in a future where humanity has done such a great job of automating all our jobs that most people just live in VR and the people who still work pretty much are just doing PR for whatever automated industry they represent.

Plus what's not to love about a story about a clone trying to find out why one of her older clones went missing a decade before in mysterious circumstances?

------------------------------

Abziie that's precisely our problem now moving into a service economy, we need to be educating these people more if they are going to participate, otherwise they will end up being completely disenfranchised by the changes now happening. The last thing we want is a massive under-class living in slums because they can't get any work at all.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie View Post

I'd argue that in general it is the best option as it frees the financial and human capital to do something else.

The distinction I make is that is for actual efficiency gains ie finding a better way to do something, not getting 5 people to work longer to do the work of 7.

I'd agree with all of that: all on the proviso that the human capital has a place where they can do something else.

Don't take this the wrong way bruv, but I'm starting to get head-hurt from this topic. I might leave it there for a bit eh.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

Geezah, not sure if you like Sci-fi but I would highly recommend you read "Slow Lightning" by Jack Mcdevitt.

It is basically a noir detective novel set in a future where humanity has done such a great job of automating all our jobs that most people just live in VR and the people who still work pretty much are just doing PR for whatever automated industry they represent.

Plus what's not to love about a story about a clone trying to find out why one of her older clones went missing a decade before in mysterious circumstances?

Sounds cool. I'll check it out.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

Abziie that's precisely our problem now moving into a service economy, we need to be educating these people more if they are going to participate, otherwise they will end up being completely disenfranchised by the changes now happening. The last thing we want is a massive under-class living in slums because they can't get any work at all.

Yep, thats the reason why manufacturing is important to politicians.

I'm a little abivalent to all of it.

I think it would be naive to believe (not saying you are, but it is a talking point of many politicians) that many of the people who are 30+ and are currently employed in manufacturing can (and would be willing/able to) be educated and retrained to take their place in the "new" economy.

I think, what is often not recognised is that many of the long term unemployed are simply unemployable in contemporary Australia.

In my view, it is inevitable that we have an under-class living in slums. I dont think an egalitarian society is sustainable.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Abziie View Post

In my view, it is inevitable that we have an under-class living in slums. I dont think an egalitarian society is sustainable.

Quite apart from that view betraying what a deeply unpleasant little person you are, have you been paying any attention to what's been going on in London over the last few days? Watch 4 Corners last night, by any chance?

Nearly everyone working in crime prevention research agrees that making sure that everyone has educational opportunities is the best way to prevent crime. So even if you lack the common decency to want to see your fellow humans treated like humans, you would presumably support policies that make it less likely that your fellow humans will nick your laptop.
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I dont see how that comment betrays my so called deeply unpleasant character.

Maybe I should have put the word "comparative" in front of "under-class living in slums". We might also need to define what we mean by egalitarian.

I strongly believe in equality of opportunity - same goes with rights, law, race, gender, liberty, political, freedom etc etc.

But for example; What happens when the rest of the world catches up (or gets close) to our level of productivity, what happens to the people who a) decided to put their feet up while they were younger, or b) have comparatively less ability.

We are already seeing it everywhere, retailers crying about "costs". By costs they mean wages. While in other sectors of the economy employers cant throw enough money at employees.

I'm not saying that I have the answers or that I agree with it - but if there is one thing that history has taught us, it is that in the long term: some people live in castles, others in slums... and the gap is usually always widening - until there is a revolution, then the process starts again.
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Now it is the carbon tax stealing our jerrrrrrrrbs:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8294033

(Press release with "survey results" here: http://www.anra.com.au/news/media-releases.html )

Are people that stupid, and/or has the coalition fear campaign been so effective, that people are really putting off spending because of a tax which isn't going to come in for another nine months and which will increase prices by 0.7%? I wonder whether the better explanation is that the people surveyed treated this as an opportunity to express their disagreement with the carbon tax).
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

Now it is the carbon tax stealing our jerrrrrrrrbs:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8294033

(Press release with "survey results" here: http://www.anra.com.au/news/media-releases.html )

Are people that stupid, and/or has the coalition fear campaign been so effective, that people are really putting off spending because of a tax which isn't going to come in for another nine months and which will increase prices by 0.7%? I wonder whether the better explanation is that the people surveyed treated this as an opportunity to express their disagreement with the carbon tax).

Hard to say without seeing how the survey was worded. But I meet two kinds of people. Those that are incredibly frustrated at the opposition to a price on carbon, and those that are absolutely convinced the carbon price is going to ruin the economy. Anecdotaly, this seems to correlate with the relative understanding and acceptance of human induced climate change.

I've met smart people who deny climate change, so it's not intelligence. This is irrational behaviour. And it's probably due to the uncanny experience of being in a world where the weather, once a trivial subject for social niceties, is now this somewhat insidious climatic backdrop, like when the sky is red from bush fires.

So a fear campaign underpinned by climate change denialism has a running head start, because so many people would rather hear that message.
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The current legal situation with offshore online shopping is fine and works quite well.

The carbon tax is a threat to me. Its also a threat to other parts of the community with which I benefit from.

Like many voters, I vote based on whats in it for me, and how I perceive I will be affected by policy/policy proposals.

I will vote this lying government right out of office. They promised us no carbon tax, and have no mandate to force one upon us. Unfortunately I don't see my local MP being booted out, as its still the seat of Sydney rather than Eden-Monaro or Indi as where I live.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by freedom74 View Post

The current legal situation with offshore online shopping is fine and works quite well.

The carbon tax is a threat to me. Its also a threat to other parts of the community with which I benefit from.

Like many voters, I vote based on whats in it for me, and how I perceive I will be affected by policy/policy proposals.

I will vote this lying government right out of office. They promised us no carbon tax, and have no mandate to force one upon us. Unfortunately I don't see my local MP being booted out, as its still the seat of Sydney rather than Eden-Monaro or Indi as where I live.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Abziie View Post

Yep, thats the reason why manufacturing is important to politicians.

you cannot be serious?

if manufacturing was important, they would have banned live animal exports, and they would do interesting things like provide direct funding to the solar panel industry, the computer gaming industry and forbid CSIRO patents being developed overseas.

this, and previous, governments do not give a shit about manufacturing
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Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

you cannot be serious?

if manufacturing was important, they would have banned live animal exports, and they would do interesting things like provide direct funding to the solar panel industry, the computer gaming industry and forbid CSIRO patents being developed overseas.

this, and previous, governments do not give a shit about manufacturing

To a large degree, you are right. Recent governments are giving less and less of a shit.
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And now just to prove that there is no end to the things Harvey Norman will whine about, now they are bursting into tears about the injunction against the sale of the Galaxy Tab 10.1:

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/t...018-1lu94.html
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I hate to stick up for him...but in this matter he does have a point.

if samsung is proven to be in breach of patent laws after the full hearing, then they should be stopped then and also pay compensation.

There is no point of putting in an unenforceable injunction. (which punishes only a relatively handful of retailers).
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

And now just to prove that there is no end to the things Harvey Norman will whine about, now they are bursting into tears about the injunction against the sale of the Galaxy Tab 10.1:

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/t...018-1lu94.html

That judgement was a disgrace anyway.

The entire patent system is a joke and the judge deserves the contempt shown by the public for her decision.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Abziie View Post

if samsung is proven to be in breach of patent laws after the full hearing, then they should be stopped then and also pay compensation.

The reason why interlocutory injunctions are granted in patent cases is that if Apple succeeds, it is a very difficult and expensive process for Apple to establish what loss it suffered by reason of the infringement of the patent (or, alternatively, what profits Samsung should fairly be ordered to disgorge). There's only one thing better than getting damages for a breach of your legal rights, and that is not suffering a breach of your legal rights in the first place.

A court won't grant an injunction if it will be futile to do so, but nor will it dissolve an injunction merely because the injunction is being breached. Otherwise, those breaching the injunction would gain by doing so.
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Clearly God was pissed off at that hypocritical litigious Steve Jobs technology cancer.
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What is wrong with this picture?

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/shop...511-1yg3r.html

''When you've got overseas websites selling the same pair of jeans for $100 or $150 cheaper because they don't have to pay the outdated taxes and duties that we do, then what hope do we have?''

Either there are people who pay $1000 - $1500 for a pair of jeans, or GST is not actually the problem. Which could it be?
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Utter nonsense that can easily be circumvented by anyone with half a brain cell.
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Clearly it's $1000 jeans that are ruining us all.
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Here we go again.......
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Typical retail approach - make everything more expensive rather than try to fix the problem

The winners here will be the online websites that give you an american address for online purchases and then forward the goods to you in Australia (or wherever).

On a side note, how awesome would $1000 jeans be! The material would be hand-crafted by Princess Kate and the stitching would be silk, with a diamond buckle.
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Er.... take it they've not read this.... http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...d/788551#h3_60

Exclusive dealing

It is unlawful for a supplier to attempt directly or indirectly to interfere with the freedom of buyers to buy from other suppliers or to sell to whom they choose, for example by imposing territorial or customer restrictions on the buyer, if such conduct has the purpose or effect of substantially lessening competition.

Similarly, buyers cannot impose restrictions on the freedom of suppliers to sell as they wish if such conduct has the purpose or effect of substantially lessening competition. Exclusive dealing is prohibited if it occurs in the context of trade or commerce.

Supplying goods or services on condition that the buyer will acquire other goods or services from another supplier, even a related company, is prohibited outright regardless of its effect on competition (third line forcing). However, this conduct can be notified to the ACCC, and may be authorised on public benefit grounds.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by weekender View Post

Er.... take it they've not read this....

If the conduct is taking place offshore (eg an agreement reached in Sweden with a Swedish manufacturer about selling into Australia) then it will be beyond th reach of the ACCC. Equally, there are plenty of situations in which it will be legitimate for a foreign supplier to appoint an exclusive Australian distributor - if I am going to spend a bunch of cash in Australia advertising your foreign brand which I'm distributing, I don't want aniother distributor coming along and getting the benefit that advertising, and nor do I want you selling directly into my market.

However, it strikes me as a massive PR mis-step to be bragging about how you are engaging in antti-competitive conduct in order to stiff Australian consumers. That said, this campaign has been PR mis-step after PR mis-step, so no real surprise there, on one view of things.
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I would have thought that the domestic retailers colluding with the overseas distributors/ manufacturers would have something to answer though, surely they are imposing territorial restrictions upon the ability of consumers to access products?

(nb. I do indirect tax shizzle not consumer law, so pass me the orthopedic shoes anytime)
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Retailers are so devil like, let's burn them all !
FFS.
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Why waste money on matches and lighter fluid? Stop buying things you don't need and the problem will take care of itself.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by hipswinger View Post

Retailers are so devil like, let's burn them all !
FFS.

Derp. If retailers want to make a difference they should read the Productivity Report findings and action some of the key issues that need addressing (whether it is property rents, property zoning, etc) rather than hamfistedly get consumers offside with red herrings like import GST.
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As others have said before for a long time we've been paying a lot more for our useless stuff than other developed nations like US, UK, Europe etc while Aussie retailers have been laughing their plump bottoms all the way to the bank. Now that times are toughening they cry fowl. I say fuck em.

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Aren't most of retails costs as a result of exorbitant rent? Not to mention the minimum wage here is higher than in the US. These things until the Internet has opened our eyes are surely valid contributing factors rather than just gouging.

I'm not defending them,I'd love cheaper shit, but everything here is expensive including the movies, a schooner, a house etc.

Is it not that we have a relatively high standard of living? When I traveled foreigners were envious of that a student could earn working casually.

Btw whenever I go into a shop I end up buying. I cbf then going online and waiting for something after I've scoped it out in the shop, esp if I love it.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by weekender View Post

Derp. If retailers want to make a difference they should read the Productivity Report findings and action some of the key issues that need addressing (whether it is property rents, property zoning, etc) rather than hamfistedly get consumers offside with red herrings like import GST.

property zoning is a government issue, retailers have no say over zoning.

retailers don't control rents, they pay them. Retail owners are the one's who control rents ie Westfield, Lend Lease, AMP, Dexus as far as regional centres are concerned and private investors control most of the sub regional and neighbourhood centres.
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One thing that rarely gets mentioned in this discussion that really should get more time is the fact Centro was going bankrupt due to massive incompetence of their executives.

This has had a massive effect on local retail as Centro has been gouging their store-holders with ever increasing rents as they try to get the money to claw themselves back into the black.

They also have been cutting services to their store-holders to cut their own costs. I was managing a store in a Centro shopping centre a few years ago and they were involved in all sorts of shonky shit like constantly having service elevators out of order and not bothering to repair them, switching off the lights during the day, turning of the aircon on hot days and lots of other petty cost-cutting practices that made the place less welcoming to customers and massively effected the turnover of every store there. With the lights and aircon off we were pretty much guaranteed not to have any customers in the entire centre let alone our store.

In most commercial leases in shopping centres each stores rent is partly calculated based on their profit. During the GFC Centro repeatedly raised the base rent of all the stores in the centre I was in to cover their lost rent income due to lowered profits. I know 3 store owners that were forced to go bankrupt to get out of their leases as a result of this shit.

They just got ordered to pay out $200m to their shareholders, but of course all the tenants they fucked over before their board finally got sacked haven't got a chance of getting a cent from them despite them not meeting their own obligations under their leases while price gouging.

This sort of shit has had a massive effect on retail yet every article I've ever read only blames wage pressures for retails doldrums.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Davomaxi View Post

As others have said before for a long time we've been paying a lot more for our useless stuff than other developed nations like US, UK, Europe etc while Aussie retailers have been laughing their plump bottoms all the way to the bank. Now that times are toughening they cry fowl. I say fuck em.


So dumb.
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Retailers in most cases are the end of the line.

Rent costs
Wage costs
Inventory costs

They are the big costs of business and are all way higher than OS, just like the retail price.

Just take the blinkers off FFS.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by hipswinger View Post

Retailers in most cases are the end of the line.

Rent costs
Wage costs
Inventory costs

They are the big costs of business and are all way higher than OS, just like the retail price.

Just take the blinkers off FFS.

Fuck all to do with import GST.
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Originally Posted by Davomaxi View Post

Thanks Gerry Harvey

you can't just say all retailers have been laughing in the past. Every retail category has different profit margins, different cost bases and differing levels of competition. some retailers make 10% margin, others 30% depending on the type of goods sold. Like all indsutries, in the good times, everyone makes money and in bad times, everyone struggles (or at least they make less money than they did)
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Quote:

Originally Posted by hipswinger View Post

Retailers in most cases are the end of the line.

Rent costs
Wage costs
Inventory costs

They are the big costs of business and are all way higher than OS, just like the retail price.

Just take the blinkers off FFS.

Which brings us back to the car industry, music industry, movie industry and every other group with a representative body that chucks a tantie when disruptive technology upsets the status quo. Your industry has changed, the goal posts have moved and consumer expectations followed. Adapt or get out. That's the 2 options. Sadly for those in retail, going out of business is the more likely option as they don't have the skills or knowledge to adapt.
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Originally Posted by nrjize View Post

Which brings us back to the car industry, music industry, movie industry and every other group with a representative body that chucks a tantie when disruptive technology upsets the status quo. Your industry has changed, the goal posts have moved and consumer expectations followed. Adapt or get out. That's the 2 options. Sadly for those in retail, going out of business is the more likely option as they don't have the skills or knowledge to adapt.

that's the key issue though.........unless information technology is going to provide work for every employee of a traditional business that fails due to the introduction of new technology, where will people work in the next 20 years?
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information technology is actively putting IT workers out of work too
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

information technology is actively putting IT workers out of work too

How so, outsourcing?
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no, through the use of information technology to streamline the process and application of information technology.

outsourcing actually creates more jobs - those outsourced, and the internal management jobs to maintain the contact and direction with the jobs outsourced.
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Of Shaheed, "We gotta go back" when he said
"Why?" I said, "We gotta go
'Cause I left my wallet in El Segundo"

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You can't really call Gerald Harvey a retailer.

He isn't involved in retail at all, more advertising, insurance and being a rent-seeking parasite on anyone stupid enough to take up one of his franchises.

The bloke puts a surcharge on wholesalers on all goods sold to his franchisees. They of course jack up their prices to include this surcharge. And then Gerry gets on TV and complains that his franchisees can't compete on price with online retailers. Of course they can't you fuckstick, they are paying well over wholesale price for everything they buy.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by weekender View Post

Fuck all to do with import GST.

Did I say it did ?

The issue of import gst is that OS retail has atleast a headstart over our OWN AUSTRALIAN retail.
Does not make sense to me.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by nrjize View Post

Which brings us back to the car industry, music industry, movie industry and every other group with a representative body that chucks a tantie when disruptive technology upsets the status quo. Your industry has changed, the goal posts have moved and consumer expectations followed. Adapt or get out. That's the 2 options. Sadly for those in retail, going out of business is the more likely option as they don't have the skills or knowledge to adapt.

I know what I have to do to survive, we'll be fine but thanks for the tip mr textbook.
The perception of Aust consumers in regards to retailing are so off the mark it's just not funny
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Its all about money, isn't it?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by hipswinger View Post

The perception of Aust consumers in regards to retailing are so off the mark it's just not funny

you have it the wrong way round. Perception is everything. If consumers perceive they are getting ripped off, they'll turn elsewhere.
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'Cause I left my wallet in El Segundo"

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Ok.
The perception of WHY the disparity in retail price is way off the mark.
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