when i hear crap about improving the standard of living by having faster internet, it turns the credibility of the whole debate to turd

You can get a pizza/curry/noodles to arrive at your house without talking to foreigners on the phone. If that is t improving quality of life, I don't know what is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

when i hear crap about improving the standard of living by having faster internet, it turns the credibility of the whole debate to turd

Every debate on this forum turns to turd as soon as you enter it. In every debate you make a MASSIVE error of fact and then base the rest of your reasoning on that mistake. The error you keep making and are too idiotic to realise (or in denial more likely because as we know, you're a gutless coward who can't admit when he has made a mistake or simply posted some random made up bullshit and gets called out on it) is that the $40b you keep crapping on about is NOT paid for by taxes. It is an investment that is paid for by govt bonds which get paid back by user subscriptions.

If you think it is a waste of money, then stop your pathetic whinging and don't sign up to it when it gets rolled out to your locale. But like I said, when it does you'll be a massive hypocrite as well and you'll sign onto it in nanosecond.

Quote:

Shouldn’t we spend the money of better health or education?

In a similar vein to the above, there are often statements along the lines of “the NBN money would be better spent on health or education” etc.

Again, since the NBN returns its investment, one can’t simply redirect that money to health or education unless that spending also returned that investment. For example, if you built a hospital with the money, then you would have to charge people to use the hospital to the extent that every dollar spent was returned, plus 7% per annum. Of course, that would not tie in very well with our “free” medicare system!

But, for a moment let’s forget about the NBN’s return and assume that it does not generate any revenue at all, and the entire 10-year, $27bn Government investment is not returned. How does that compare to Government spending on health and education?

Well, over the same 10-year period, Australian Governments will spend over $1.2 Trillion dollars on public healthcare. They will spend over $500 Billion dollars on public education. They will spend over $200 Billion dollars on defence.

Put another way, the Government will spend more on public healthcare every three months than they invest in the NBN over ten years.

http://nbnmyths.wordpress.com/how-are-we-paying-for-it/

but yeah, keep repeating lies to yourself buffed if that makes you not feel like a nonsensical acid tripper. I guess lying to yourself improves your quality of life.

give up. he won't even read it.

I gave up hope of that long ago. I like the suspense he brings to the forum..... what insanely nonsensical alternative bizarro reality can he come up with today? Gotta feed him something to get those creative juices flowing

Quote:

Originally Posted by didjeridude

Every debate on this forum turns to turd as soon as you enter it. In every debate you make a MASSIVE error of fact and then base the rest of your reasoning on that mistake. The error you keep making and are too idiotic to realise (or in denial more likely because as we know, you're a gutless coward who can't admit when he has made a mistake or simply posted some random made up bullshit and gets called out on it) is that the $40b you keep crapping on about is NOT paid for by taxes. It is an investment that is paid for by govt bonds which get paid back by user subscriptions.

If you think it is a waste of money, then stop your pathetic whinging and don't sign up to it when it gets rolled out to your locale. But like I said, when it does you'll be a massive hypocrite as well and you'll sign onto it in nanosecond.

i'm still waiting for you to tell me what the cost and revenue has been so far to date. It's pretty easy to work out whether the 7% return is bullshit or not. I'll wait for your figures.

I liked it better when buffed mainly posted about fucking MILFs in the ass. Maybe he's grumpy these days cause hes not getting regular ITB?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

I liked it better when buffed mainly posted about fucking MILFs in the ass. Maybe he's grumpy these days cause hes not getting regular ITB?

i will be nailing one this weekend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

i will be nailing one this weekend.

Good to hear, I did used to find your anecdotes genuinely amusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

i'm still waiting for you to tell me what the cost and revenue has been so far to date. It's pretty easy to work out whether the 7% return is bullshit or not. I'll wait for your figures.

You want to know what the return has been to date before much of the infrastructure has even been built? what is it that you do for a living exactly, aren't you in property or something? When you tell me how a developer can get a return on an investment property that he plans to rent out, before the property is actually built and being rented, then I'll give you your figures.

You can lead buffed to evidence but you can't make him think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by didjeridude

You want to know what the return has been to date before much of the infrastructure has even been built? what is it that you do for a living exactly, aren't you in property or something? When you tell me how a developer can get a return on an investment property that he plans to rent out, before the property is actually built and being rented, then I'll give you your figures.

i want to know the costs and revenue to date. I also want to know how much money has been raised through bond issues and how much has been spent to date in equity v debt.

You know a lot about the economics of the NBN, so i'll wait patiently for the figures

I like how it's moved from 'not required' to 'benefits are not well defined' to 'benefits not worth the cost' to 'how is it being paid for' to 'are the figures right'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by didjeridude

I gave up hope of that long ago. I like the suspense he brings to the forum..... what insanely nonsensical alternative bizarro reality can he come up with today? Gotta feed him something to get those creative juices flowing

I was thinking about shutting him down because it was getting just stupid, there's only so much inane trolling one can take, but damn, everybody has been dismantling his liberal party diatribe so effectively that it has made this thread really worthwhile.
It's pretty much fait accompli for the case for the NBN, it's self funding, it's not expensive, and of incalculable utility. And the only vaguely valid problem with it is that it isn't happening quickly enough.

As a Liberal party voter in the last and previous election, I hereby officially disassociate myself from buffed and all like him

Quote:

Originally Posted by YossarianIsSane

I like how it's moved from 'not required' to 'benefits are not well defined' to 'benefits not worth the cost' to 'how is it being paid for' to 'are the figures right'.

Yep, that shift was pretty amusing to me as well - it's not required, there's enough bandwidth. Ok, but the benefits are social, nothing else. Well ok, but it costs taxpayers too much. Ok, but you can't do a CBA right this second.

I know it's some sort of alpha-male machismo to never admit when you're wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (see: Christianity, the GOP) but I would think that a lot of people would think a lot more highly of someone who can take evidence contrary to their views, analyse it and then say 'you know, actually I think there is merit in that'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by horst

I was thinking about shutting him down because it was getting just stupid, there's only so much inane trolling one can take, but damn, everybody has been dismantling his liberal party diatribe so effectively that it has made this thread really worthwhile.
It's pretty much fait accompli for the case for the NBN, it's self funding, it's not expensive, and of incalculable utility. And the only vaguely valid problem with it is that it isn't happening quickly enough.

i'm still waiting for the numbers.............

surely you can guys can give the current revenues v costs and the current program to date given you are so sure of the economics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangoriously

Yep, that shift was pretty amusing to me as well - it's not required, there's enough bandwidth. Ok, but the benefits are social, nothing else. Well ok, but it costs taxpayers too much. Ok, but you can't do a CBA right this second.

I know it's some sort of alpha-male machismo to never admit when you're wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (see: Christianity, the GOP) but I would think that a lot of people would think a lot more highly of someone who can take evidence contrary to their views, analyse it and then say 'you know, actually I think there is merit in that'.

Overwhelming evidence? Like your assertion that cities will close down without the NBN? lol

frankly, i don't think there is any merit in spending $40bn on faster entertainment downloads.........there are other priorities for that spending

Never made that assertion! At all, ever. Go and quote me where I said that cities will close down without it.

Not to mention - you've had all the other benefits explained to you, many, many times over. Frankly, if that means you can't see the merit, then you're not very smart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

frankly, i don't think there is any merit in spending $40bn on faster entertainment downloads.........there are other priorities for that spending

This is why you're ridiculous: many people have given you many potential uses from larger data transmissions in business to potential regional health benefits, yet you fall-back on the personal use for entertainment point you keep making which isn't the point anyone else is making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah

This is why you're ridiculous: many people have given you many potential uses from larger data transmissions in business to potential regional health benefits, yet you fall-back on the personal use for entertainment point you keep making which isn't the point anyone else is making.

and i don't think it's worth the $40bn.........there are other priorities IMO.

You keep saying 40bn when it hasn't been that much for a very long time.

It also isn't a cost, its a debt financed asset.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

Overwhelming evidence? Like your assertion that cities will close down without the NBN? lol

frankly, i don't think there is any merit in spending $40bn on faster entertainment downloads.........there are other priorities for that spending

if 10 million of us spent $4000 each on entertainment over an 8 year period, it would translate to around $1.37 per day

how much do you spend on bike shorts?

I'm off to the zoo to teach astrophysics to the apes, I think I'll get somewhat further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

frankly, i don't think there is any merit in spending $40bn on faster entertainment downloads.........there are other priorities for that spending

See now you're just asking for a ban. This is either blatant trolling or you need to be removed from the conversation for your stupidity and derailment. Both worthy of a ban.

Everything has been explained to you at least a half dozen times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

there are other priorities IMO.

Let's be serious buffed - you think that anything that isn't related to building approvals or motorways in NSW isn't relevant or a priority.

There is always one assumption that must be true when debating with someone, if there is to be any point - all parties must be open to having their point of view challenged sufficiently to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CircusMidget

if 10 million of us spent $4000 each on entertainment over an 8 year period, it would translate to around $1.37 per day

how much do you spend on bike shorts?

haha, the old "breaking costs down to days/hours/30 second blocks". Keep it up.

NBN, just like all major infrastructure projects, should have been put through a cost benefit analysis.

If you're claiming that it is a debt financed asset and that there is a sound business case, even more so.

Also, to be honest, I find the whole "benefits cant be quantified" argument a little suspect. You could use that argument in nearly every situation.

Why is there such hostility to a cost benefit analysis? Sure, some of its proponents might be using it as a trojan horse, but if it is a good idea...it is a good idea. Why all the hate for one of the core tools "Infrastructure Australia" uses to priorities projects?

To elaborate:

The issue here is priority and cost. I'm not sold on the scale of the project and I think that the reason the nbn didnt go through the usual channels to get approved as a project is because there is a large element of politics at play. Maybe some sort of a Labor legacy project, who knows.

Australian consumers spend over 10 billion per year on coffee. Is coffee more important than the internet abziie/buffed?

Coffee is more important than everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

i will be nailing one this weekend.

have you done a cost-benefit analysis on her? there's dinner, movies, popcorn, lube etc

surely there are other priorities in your life....

Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

It also isn't a cost, its a debt financed asset.

i asked a very simple question, i would like to know the costs and revenues to date and where the roll-out program is at, including how much has been raised in bonds. It will be pretty easy to assess the 7% return claims as well as the 'debt' fnance claims

I cant help but think that the NBN has carbon tax feel to it. "Deep down in your heart it feels right, so it cant be wrong?" Why bother with a CBA? Right?

(this is coming from someone who isn't against a national broad network scheme that recognises that there is market failure and the government needs to step in)

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed

i asked a very simple question, i would like to know the costs and revenues to date and where the roll-out program is at, including how much has been raised in bonds. It will be pretty easy to assess the 7% return claims as well as the 'debt' fnance claims

http://www.nbnco.com.au/finance/annualreport2011.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by didjeridude

Whatevs. If this were a liberal party policy the truth is that you, buffed and all the other liberal party fanbois would be in here telling everyone how awesome the NBN will be for the future of the country and why it is necessary to ensure the future economic growth and international competitiveness of the country. You would also be telling everyone that it is being paid for by users and is expected to be paid off in full in a little over 20yrs. To highlight the stupidity of the logic being used by the critics you would point out the analogy that people shouldn't buy houses with a 25yr bank loan because the monthly loan repayments are higher than the cost of renting

The biggest and main argument that seems to be in the negative is the cost factor, but this has been explained already over and over. If users think that they can do what they need with the old slow network, then let them continue using it and pay higher prices. In this event the NBN will take longer than expected to be paid off (maybe 25-30yrs instead of 20-25). If users decide that they want to pay lower prices for faster broadband, let them sign up to a FTTH plan.

My prediction is that you and all the rest of your hypocritical liberal party supporters will be signing onto FTTH as soon as it is available to you.

Please explain how you conduct a CBA on the benefits of "improved quality of life" ?

You work in health, you've seen the figures for the supposed social cost of tobacco smoking (ie: the intangible costs associated with loss of life). If you were to include those costs into a CBA on the NBN you obviously would realise the outcome would be massively in favour of an NBN?

edit I just looked it up again.... total intangible social cost of tobacco smoking was estimated at $20 billion in 2004-2005 alone. So wake up and get real. A CBA on the NBN will basically conclude that for a $40 billion outlay to be paid for not through taxes but by user subscriptions, will probably provide social benefits totalling up to $20 billion per year. Wow at that rate it will be paid off in 2yrs!!

Everything anyone says on here that goes against the grain is smeared as some liberal fanboi ploy. You're anti-lib bias far outweights my pro-lib bias. I wonder if you'd be ripping into the policy if it were implemented by a liberal government?

I hope your prediction that we will all be paying low prices for faster broadband comes into play. That is yet to be seen and poor uptake and high prices has been the standard so far.

It's not hypocritical to sign up to a network that has just already been built if it were offering higher speeds at lower prices. It would be stupid not to sign up. I dont even know what your point is there.

The design and implementation of NBN is not above criticism. It is certainly not out of line to ask for a CBA on any significant government expenditure, let alone our biggest infrastructure project of all time. Let's hope they can deliver it on time and on budget eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvoZ

I hope your prediction that we will all be paying low prices for faster broadband comes into play. That is yet to be seen and poor uptake and high prices has been the standard so far.

Where are you getting that from? The very first plans released were underwhelming true, but that changed within a couple of weeks and prices since then have been pegged at a similar level (or slightly lower than) the equivalent ADSL2+ plans, but with far better real-world performance. Sure it's pricier if you want to full 100Mbit, but that wasn't even possible in the residential market before.

Any new tech is expensive at the beginning until there's mass market appeal. Seriously how old are some of you?
How much were DVD players when new?
How much were plasma and LCD TVs?
How much were original ADSL modems?
How much bandwidth did we original get on shitty starting ADSL and cable plans?

Oh but herp derp, none of that was worth pursuing because apparently nobody wants portable movies, nobody wants to watch TV beyond Standard Definition, everyone is still dying to get that old 56k modem squeeling back and 1 gigabyte of data is PLENTY for everyone.

You're like fucking dinosaurs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fledz

How much bandwidth did we original get on shitty starting ADSL and cable plans?

Unlimited.

My forearms were HUGE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

http://www.nbnco.com.au/finance/annualreport2011.pdf

son of a bitch!

anyway, i read all the posts starting from may 20. all i see is a troll, and people getting trolled.

i don't believe a single person here on the ITM forums, who knows a thing or two about the internet and has half a dim idea about technology, could have the potential to disregard a piece of infrastructure like a nation wide fibre network based simply because of a minor cost. buffed is a troll, 100%. there is literally no point in replying to this individual.

actually, it was mildly amusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvoZ

Everything anyone says on here that goes against the grain is smeared as some liberal fanboi ploy. You're anti-lib bias far outweights my pro-lib bias. I wonder if you'd be ripping into the policy if it were implemented by a liberal government?

No if the labor govt were rolling out a wireless NBN and the liberal govt policy was a fiber optic network I would most definitely vote for the liberal govt. That is the difference between you and me. I'm not a party fanboi at all. I am for a fiber optic network because every major developed region in the world is building fiber optic, the World Bank and OECD have stated that it is a "good investment" and are encouraging all major developments so far to hurry and spend more money on those projects. No country and no telco is building a fixed wireless network. Australia already ranks very low on internet speed, high on cost and yet, the rest of the world is moving ahead of us further. It doesn't matter if you can already have your interstate video conference now, with the NBN it will be cheaper and that is good for business.

I agree with buffed and Abizze that a CBA should be done, however you'll note from this thread already that buffed doesn't need a CBA because he is already so sure that fiber optic ICT is completely unnecessary for Australia. I'm not arguing against doing a CBA, I'm arguing against the inane bullshit that buffed posts. Surely you do understand that when someone repeatedly posts something that is an outright lie (ie: $40b being "spent" by the govt that "could be used elsewhere"), even though it has repeatedly been explained why it is a lie, that isn't called "going against the grain". That is called "I'm a deluded idiot and I don't care about facts" yet there are plenty of people intelligent enough on this forum to recognise that lie and call it out for the BS that it is. You are much smarter than buffed however, so its unfortunate that you had to stay loyal to your party on this, rather than recognising the fact that Tony Abbott, Malcom Turnbull, Alan Jones, Ray Hadley etc are lying to the Australian public and their legion of ignorant followers such as buffed, have jumped on that bandwagon.

IMO one of the reasons why is makes good business sense to install fiber optic ICT in Australia is due to our isolated geography. It costs a lot of money to transport physical items to and from Australia and around Australia, therefore, it makes good sense for us to be able to deliver digital services and products to the rest of the world and cut down on export transport costs (which are only going to become more expensive as we reach peak oil). The NBN will encourage investment and growth in this sector, but that growth and investment will, and already is going, offshore if we don't have the necessary infrastructure to support it. And this brings us to yet another lie that buffed made and you repeated, ie: our internet speed is good enough already. This is FALSE. I'll give you an example. I use dropbox for work that I do, but I need to upload and sync files that are < ZOMG shock horror> 2-5mb in size. My max upload speed is a whopping 100kb/s. So if I need to upload 10 files that are say 3Mb each, it will take approx 5min to upload those files. Now imagine I live in a rural area with few job prospects and the best way for me to earn a living is to do some sort of e-commerce from home or a small office and I need to upload gigabytes of data on a regular basis. In that scenario, the current internet capacity is basically useless, and besides if it wasn't then why the hell is the rest of the world investing in FTTH?

Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

http://www.nbnco.com.au/finance/annualreport2011.pdf

lol you crack me up eddie.

manual like

All fair points didj, although your internet is unusually slow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvoZ

All fair points didj, although your internet is unusually slow.

I wouldn't really say that, the majority of ADSL2+ connections I've used have never given me much more than 100Kb/s up in real world terms. Upload speeds in this country are awful and downloads are pretty mediocre for many too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvoZ

All fair points didj, although your internet is unusually slow.

Maybe a tech head can confirm this but as far as I'm aware the maximum theoretical upload speed on ADSL2+ annex A is 128kb/s (1024kbps) with actual max speeds about 105 kb/s, so unless you are using annex M you won't get much higher than that even if you live next door to the exchange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by didjeridude

Maybe a tech head can confirm this but as far as I'm aware the maximum theoretical upload speed on ADSL2+ annex A is 128kb/s (1024kbps) with actual max speeds about 105 kb/s, so unless you are using annex M you won't get much higher than that even if you live next door to the exchange.

1Mbit
Annex M 3.5Mbit

1Mbit would translate to real world speeds of around 100KB/s though.

duh?

KelvinBytes?

anyway, 1Mbit is 128kBytes , but yeah, those are theoretical maximums