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Poll: Your thoughts on Boat People

View Poll Results: Do you care about Boat People.
Yes, it's an issue. I prefer Labor Party. 7 14.29%
No, couldn't care less. I prefer Labor Party. 7 14.29%
Yes, it's an issue. I prefer Coalition. 4 8.16%
No, couldn't care less. I prefer Coalition. 1 2.04%
"boat people" are a non-issue overblown by xenophobic bullshit 30 61.22%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

You must have forgotten the part where you're not supposed to troll in this forum.

This reaction suggests your previous post was a troll, unless you are not a person in this country?

Can you actually explain how my post could be classed as trolling, when your post wasn't?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

For the last year I've worked all over Victoria. It's an overwhelming attitude these days. Talk to any farmer and you'll learn.

Sounds like it may be a Victorian farmer problem with bulk bludgerism running rampant
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so news.com.au's lead article this afternoon is actually pretty sensible... bizarrre.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/te...-1226676024840

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

Sounds like it may be a Victorian farmer problem with bulk bludgerism running rampant

Fair go on the farmers mate, they paid for an electrician to install a smart meter. This bloke turns up and wants to talk about boat people while playing with his phone for half the day.
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Originally Posted by rancho View Post

so news.com.au's lead article this afternoon is actually pretty sensible... bizarrre.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/te...-1226676024840

They've basically stolen this, but I was still gobsmacked.

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rancho View Post

so news.com.au's lead article this afternoon is actually pretty sensible... bizarrre.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/te...-1226676024840

Murdoch has decided there is some kind of short term economic gain to be made, let the dissemination begin.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rancho View Post

so news.com.au's lead article this afternoon is actually pretty sensible... bizarrre.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/te...-1226676024840

I was wondering why I saw a flying-pig today.
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Check check check it ya'll.
Spot on.
http://m.theage.com.au/federal-polit...718-2q5rv.html

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I believe it is reasonable that unauthorised arrivals should be detained initially for preliminary health and security checks. That detention should, however, be capped at one month. After that, while their refugee status is being determined, they should be released into the community on conditions that will ensure that they remain available for processing and (if necessary) removal. They should be allowed to work and live in dignity.

Basically hes advocating for what iirc is the swedish(?) model. Hurrah.
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i seriously cannot believe what rudd announced today. absolutely atrocious.
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Why? Genuinely curious, to me it's seems a pretty measured response. PNG isn't a war torn country and it's removing the incentive to make the journey by boat, I'm happy to have my mind changed but it seems like a decent solution to me.
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a decent solution for australia's government perhaps, but we're just dumping thousands of people into a country that may not be able to handle it both socially and economically.

not only that, we've bulled indonesia into changing their visa on arrival policy for iranians to drastically reduce the amount of iranians flying to indonesia.

so we're cutting iranian's ability to escape (i accept not all arrivals are refuges) but what are we doing to help them? or the rest of the 15 million displaced people scattered around the world. we're a signatory to the geneva conventions and the refugee convention, we have obligations of humanitarian spending and intake that dumping and and bullying developing nations doesn't really fulfill those obligations.

the facility is being expanded to house 3,000 people, but we've had 20,000 odd arrivals this year and the processing generally takes fucking ages. are they going to be able to handle it with only a 3,000 pax facility?

labor and the coalition seem only to focus on stopping asylum seekers coming to australia and very fucking little to stopping them leaving their country to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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On a scale of better fishing to cheaper buds, I could live happily in PNG
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rancho View Post

the facility is being expanded to house 3,000 people, but we've had 20,000 odd arrivals this year and the processing generally takes fucking ages. are they going to be able to handle it with only a 3,000 pax facility?

labor and the coalition seem only to focus on stopping asylum seekers coming to australia and very fucking little to stopping them leaving their country to begin with.

I think their focus is to prevent more deaths at sea. There has been well over 1000 over the past 5 years. Is this an acceptable figure for you?

By in large what's making them leave their country is that their country is poor and ours is rich. No different to Latino's who cross the border into the US at the risk of dehydration in the desert or execution at the hands of unscrupulous drug cartels, Northern Africans who cross into Spain, France and Italy at the risk of drowning in the Mediterranean sea, etc. It's a worldwide problem.

As for the facility only housing 3000 pax, that is a genuine concern and no doubt it will quickly reach capacity. Though I'm sure there's no shortage of other cash strapped governments of sparsely populated nations around the world who may also readily accept a similar deal. Say for example Angola.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 19-Jul-13 at 07:30pm

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labor perhaps take it into consideration, but the coalition don't give a shit about deaths at sea. tony abbott is convinced he can turn boats around which will just turn back around and make another attempt...

sending them to offshore facilities isn't going to stop boats. the boats will still come, they will make their way to christmas island and the passengers will be sent off to PNG. boat operators will still take money from people and promise them they're going somewhere lovely.

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rancho View Post

boat operators will still take money from people and promise them they're going somewhere lovely.

This. It's not asylum seekers are sitting around watching Australian policy developments on the tele.

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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I don't think they're as stupid and naive as either of you make out. Of course they'll do a bit of internet research on where they will likely end up before forking out thousands of dollars cash to some dodgy people smuggler to embark on a risky journey across the sea. There was an SBS dateline special on this about a year ago if you want to dig it up.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by crabman View Post

This. It's not asylum seekers are sitting around watching Australian policy developments on the tele.

Honestly, you'd be surprised how up to date they are on what's happening inAustralia in regards to policy. A lot of them still have access to mobile phones and text messages form Australian relatives tend to spread quickly amongst those who are seeking to come via boats (this is coming straight from a Farsi speaking interpreter I know who has worked with them extensively)
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Quote:

Originally Posted by tapout View Post

Why? Genuinely curious, to me it's seems a pretty measured response. PNG isn't a war torn country and it's removing the incentive to make the journey by boat, I'm happy to have my mind changed but it seems like a decent solution to me.

Mate it might not be war torn but that doesn't mean it's not a fucking shithole.

"Health Minister Michael Malabag in February said as many as 68 per cent of PNG's women have experienced some form violence, with as many as one third subjected to rape."

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/b...-1226611122873
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Astro-Boy View Post

Mate it might not be war torn but that doesn't mean it's not a fucking shithole.

"Health Minister Michael Malabag in February said as many as 68 per cent of PNG's women have experienced some form violence, with as many as one third subjected to rape."

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/b...-1226611122873

I've got no illusion that its not a great place to be, but if it really stops people making the choice to come to Australia via shithouse boats and risking their lives, and their childrens lives in the process, then to me it seems a better solution. To be clear, I'm not against refugee intake at all, and if the smugglers were using double hull passenger ferries to ship them over safely from Indo then I wouldn't have a problem with how they chose to get here, but seeing kids drown is fucking heartbreaking for everyone involved and the PNG solution seems like the lesser of two evils in this case.
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Just out of curiosity, how desperate would someone have to be to risk their lives in one of those boats exactly?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by tapout View Post

I've got no illusion that its not a great place to be, but if it really stops people making the choice to come to Australia via shithouse boats and risking their lives, and their childrens lives in the process, then to me it seems a better solution. To be clear, I'm not against refugee intake at all, and if the smugglers were using double hull passenger ferries to ship them over safely from Indo then I wouldn't have a problem with how they chose to get here, but seeing kids drown is fucking heartbreaking for everyone involved and the PNG solution seems like the lesser of two evils in this case.

But the PNG solution isn't to stop boats. If it stops boats then the facility is redundant because there's not going to be anyone to send there. They know it won't do shit to stop boats but it might swing a few votes.

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

Just out of curiosity, how desperate would someone have to be to risk their lives in one of those boats exactly?

SBS's series Go back to where you came from, is a decent starting point to get some first hand accounts.

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

Just out of curiosity, how desperate would someone have to be to risk their lives in one of those boats exactly?

You ever been to Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras? Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt? Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka? I have. Some of the people there are dirt poor and extremely desperate, and I have no doubt most of them would be more than willing to risk their lives to get to the west, by whatever means and excuse possible, and they do.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 19-Jul-13 at 09:09pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rancho View Post

SBS's series Go back to where you came from, is a decent starting point to get some first hand accounts.

Oh I am well aware, but it seems there are a few that arent.
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so the question was rhetorical?

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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admittedly the investment into hospitals and education we'll be making in PNG is welcomed, but it still feels too much like passing the buck. maybe i'm too compassionate

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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Actually it was more that im interested to know what other people think motivates someone to take that kind of trip.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

You ever been to Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras? Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt? Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka? I have. Some of the people there are dirt poor and extremely desperate, and I have no doubt most of them would be more than willing to risk their lives to get to the west, by whatever means and excuse possible, and they do.

Probably not being oppressed killed and their country destroyed by the very people who went in there to 'liberate' them though are they?
Ive said it before, and particularly in relation to afghan asylum seekers, we as a nation, played a part in creating this situation, so its only fair we play a part in helping to rectify it.
It would be nice if 'helping' encompassed treating asylum seekers humanely, honouring our part of the convention and NOT locking people up in prison...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rancho View Post

labor and the coalition seem only to focus on stopping asylum seekers coming to australia and very fucking little to stopping them leaving their country to begin with.

It's pretty hard for Australia to do much to stop people leaving war-torn or theocratically murderous countries. We can be part of peace keeping forces but it's a global issue that isn't that easy to solve. Not all the issues have to do with Anglo-American foreign policy decisions of the 20th century. I'm not saying Australia can't try to be part of diplomatic and UN initiatives to try and make the origin countries of asylum seekers more peaceful but I know we can do very little except be part of intervening forces if things turn particularly dire.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rancho View Post

1. labor perhaps take it into consideration, but the coalition don't give a shit about deaths at sea. tony abbott is convinced he can turn boats around which will just turn back around and make another attempt...

2. sending them to offshore facilities isn't going to stop boats. the boats will still come, they will make their way to christmas island and the passengers will be sent off to PNG. boat operators will still take money from people and promise them they're going somewhere lovely.

1. I don't think that is particularly fair. I'd agree that the majority of the Coalition seem to use boat deaths more as a political weapon rather than having a genuine concern for asylum seeker sea deaths but I think there are a few at least who seem genuinely disheartened by what is happening.

2. It might. If PNG seems like a less worthwhile destination for asylum seekers to risk their lives over they probably won't risk it.

I don't particularly like this policy announcement by Rudd, it seems extremely cynically motivated, but I hate seeing people drown at sea more. And if boat arrivals keep coming up to current levels then there will be more and more deaths.

The number of deaths at sea may seem relatively small in the larger scheme of things but the number should be irrelevant. What is relevant is that we know people are dying: is it in our power to implement policy that will directly deter large numbers of people making this journey? I do not know that answer. I do know we should try.
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I think this is a very interesting policy development, and I haven't worked out which side I'm on. I think there is an interesting take on the outrage of interest groups, and that is their outrage is actually extremely insulting to PNG. I've worked on a few small projects up in PNG. PNG has a lot of problems, a lot of them caused by underfunded and inappropriate Australian intervention. But many if not most PNG people are really lovely, especially the coastal people, who are so laid back it defies belief. What that has meant is the much more mercantile and aggressive highlanders run the country, with politically powerful and corrupt highland provinces consistently destabilising the government.

If this program is properly funded and resourced, it could be a win/win solution. With proper infrastructure and more stable government, PNG would be an awesome place to live. PNG has a lot of natural resources, it is a potentially very wealthy country. What you could end up seeing is Snowy mark 2, hopefully with better conditions for the migrants than the post WW2 migrants experienced in Australia. If the refugees are genuine political refugees, PNG for them could be a paradise with massive opportunities.

If this plan is combined with a large foreign aid injection, which could also benefit the struggling Australian infrastructure industry, it may work. If it is not properly funded, it will be a disaster.

I can see the point made that this policy is a class apartheid, because air arrivals won't be included in the plan.
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One thing to never forget as well, is that it is the Coalition who made boat people a political issue, and who have continued to make it a political issue. Ultimately the blame for unsavoury political decisions must be attributed to them. It's no point having socially moderate policies if you can never form a government to implement them. The same goes for climate change policy.
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funniest thing is the Coalition MPs bawwwwing that they didn't get to fuck over asylum seekers as much as Rudd has

Abbott's all like 'yeah this is great but it won't stop the boats (tm) because Rudd something something pink batts (tm) waste'

everything else is fucking woeful
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

I can see the point made that this policy is a class apartheid, because air arrivals won't be included in the plan.

Wealthy refugees on cruise ships are included in this plan?
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on the other hand dumping 1000 Afghans in rural PNG could be the best reality series ever
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heard a people smuggler on the abc this morning who said this would work in stopping the boats coming to oz, for a while at least
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

heard a people smuggler on the abc this morning who said this would work in stopping the boats coming to oz, for a while at least

smoke and mirrors, he's just all 'yeah, we totally won't come into your waters, no need to send ships to patrol.....'

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
chilli is hot pepper food etc.
chilly is cold temperature.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

I think this is a very interesting policy development, and I haven't worked out which side I'm on. I think there is an interesting take on the outrage of interest groups, and that is their outrage is actually extremely insulting to PNG. I've worked on a few small projects up in PNG. PNG has a lot of problems, a lot of them caused by underfunded and inappropriate Australian intervention. But many if not most PNG people are really lovely, especially the coastal people, who are so laid back it defies belief. What that has meant is the much more mercantile and aggressive highlanders run the country, with politically powerful and corrupt highland provinces consistently destabilising the government.

Aren't people still burned as witches in PNG?

Either way its atrocious policy. It's Australia actually acting blatantly racist and xenophobic against people fleeing for their lives.
If NZ's Volcano's got uppity, would we be sending Kiwi's to PNG? I don't fucking think so, they would be welcomed with open arms, because us Whites need to stick together.
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I honestly can't believe that Australia would trample all over the UN Convention on Refugees for such a trivial matter, considering Australia is probably the country with the smallest amount refugees in the entire world.

Everyone in Government should be absolutely disgusted.
What is hilarious is that we shit all over Climate Change policy again and then cry about Refugees. I personally can't wait till the hundreds of millions if not billions of climate refugees start flooding everywhere.

Also if you think any of the psychopathic politicians in both major parties give a fuck about people drowning at sea, you are seriously deluded. Those are what you call "Crocodile Tears". Every time a boat sinks and people drown, the politicians cheer in their heart, because it gives them an excuse to push xenophobic bullshit for easy votes.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by crabman View Post

This. It's not asylum seekers are sitting around watching Australian policy developments on the tele.

But once a few of them end up in PNG with no hope of escape they'll get the message

Sending them to PNG isn't a reality - it's a deterrent and one that should work

I'm all for measured immigration and have long agreed with Rudd that we could take a far larger number of immigrants into Australia, but it has to be done on our terms and not theirs.

Every time I go to England all I hear for the entire time I'm there is "you're so lucky you've left" - "England is fucking shit, the immigrants have taken over" - "Fucking muslim scumbags, come here, sit on unumployment benefits etc etc etc". This isn't from people that I would have considered racist before I left England in the mid 90's but they certainly ALL are now.

England becomes more nasty and racist every day and it's not pleasant.

The reason? The huge increase in uncontrolled immigration. Pure and simple.

The best thing for Australia is to not let this happen. Control immigration. Take who you need on the basis of the needs of the Nation - not the individuals. The majority comes first. It always should. The English have forgotten that and created a massive nasty mess for themselves. There is no reason we should do the same.
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The difference is, England gets hundreds of thousands of refugees.
Australia gets a handful that are usually settled in the middle of nowhere.
Also Australia is 31x+ the size of England with not even a quarter of the population.

You can not compare Europe which takes the brunt of Refugees in any way to Australia. Europe in its entirety isn't even near the size of Australia.
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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

Aren't people still burned as witches in PNG?

Either way its atrocious policy. It's Australia actually acting blatantly racist and xenophobic against people fleeing for their lives.
If NZ's Volcano's got uppity, would we be sending Kiwi's to PNG? I don't fucking think so, they would be welcomed with open arms, because us Whites need to stick together.
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Am I right guys! Yeah fuck those darkies!

I honestly can't believe that Australia would trample all over the UN Convention on Refugees for such a trivial matter, considering Australia is probably the country with the smallest amount refugees in the entire world.

Everyone in Government should be absolutely disgusted.
What is hilarious is that we shit all over Climate Change policy again and then cry about Refugees. I personally can't wait till the hundreds of millions if not billions of climate refugees start flooding everywhere.

Also if you think any of the psychopathic politicians in both major parties give a fuck about people drowning at sea, you are seriously deluded. Those are what you call "Crocodile Tears". Every time a boat sinks and people drown, the politicians cheer in their heart, because it gives them an excuse to push xenophobic bullshit for easy votes.

Complains about xenophobia, vilifies neighboring country.

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Originally Posted by big eddie View Post

Complains about xenophobia, vilifies neighboring country.

Oh fucking please.

So suddenly because of political correctness we are not allowed to talk about other countries? Okay cool story bro.

Sending people to PNG to me is the same of resettling Refugees in any other third world country rampant with corruption and mysticism and violence.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/witchhun...415-2huha.html
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If you don't want to be called out about xenophobic straw men, don't use them?

PNG has a lot of humanitarian issues, but its also has a VERY wide range of socioeconomic strata.

Ascribing the practices of some of the more backward highland regions to the entire country is exactly what you are doing.

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Xenophobic strawmen?
Are you serious? The only reason Refugees are an "issue" is because of Xenophobia. How many Australians are up for instating the Greens/Fraser Regional Solution policy that has historically worked. None. Why? MAH WHITE GENOCIDE!

This issue is just dripping with Xenophobia and racism and the worst part to me is the crocodile tears over people drowning at sea. When these same Refugees are burnt as witches in PNG, are there going to be tears? Nope.
Refugees massacred in Pakistan, any tears? Nope.
Refugees facing corporal punishment in Malaysia, Tears? Nope.
Refugees fleeing from their homes because of American and AUSTRALIAN neocolonalism bringing unstability to the region, tears? Nope, in fact, most are cheering over that one.

If you can honestly believe that this issue isn't lowest common denominator xenophobic/racist card playing for votes, then as I said before, you and anyone else is deluded.
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Okay, I'll speak slowly for you.

I'm very aware the only reason that refugees are an issue in Australia is due to xenophobia. I just find your ranting about xenophobia in one sentence, then making generalisations about our backward darkie neighbours in the next a touch amusing.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie View Post

Okay, I'll speak slowly for you.

I'm very aware the only reason that refugees are an issue in Australia is due to xenophobia. I just find your ranting about xenophobia in one sentence, then making generalisations about our backward darkie neighbours in the next a touch amusing.

I am not saying PNG is a shithole because they are darkies, I'm saying PNG is a shithole because it is a fucking corrupt shithole. Everyone saying it is an "island paradise" on all the news comment sites can then fuck off to PNG then and let Refugees take their houses.

"Generalizations about our neighbours"
No PNG is a shithole the same way Pakistan is a shithole or India is a shithole or most developing nations are shithole, a country that is corrupt, violent and has massive wealth inequality issues.

Do you honestly believe these refugees will be resettled in the innercity with the rest of the "middle class" urbanites, or fucked off as slave labour to some plantations in the middle of nowhere?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

I am not saying PNG is a shithole because they are darkies, I'm saying PNG is a shithole because it is a fucking corrupt shithole.

What you were actually saying is they're superstitious murderers.

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

Aren't people still burned as witches in PNG?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

Sending people to PNG to me is the same of resettling Refugees in any other third world country rampant with corruption and mysticism and violence.

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

When these same Refugees are burnt as witches in PNG, are there going to be tears? Nope.

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How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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I'd add that the Greens Policy while arguably more humane doesn't seem like it would stop people dying at sea. Not until there comes a time when there is a complete political re-alignment in asylum seekers' countries of origin leading to people feeling that they are safe and secure.

Australia's immigration intake would disprove the racist charge. Of course there is xenophobic elements to the importance placed on the asylum seeker issue, and there are no doubt many Australian racists who disguise their beliefs under "border protection" but saying that every MP in parliament (apart from the Greens of course) doesn't care, and are just a bunch of ambitious robots is just a load of bull dangar.

You only need to look at Australia to see that it is one of the most successful multicultural, multi-ethnic countries in the history of history. Of course if you point to all the Hansonites and extrapolate that out to be the representative view of all Australians, you can do that, but you'd also be wrong. I could just as easily point to all the Greens voters, extrapolate that outwards to be representative of Australia, and I would be wrong, but I could do it if I wanted to so as to give myself an incorrect and unrealistic view of Australia.

These are strawman arguments. They are strawman arguments because they point to something that is partially true but not necessarily true in any holistic sense.
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