[dbb618]

So, there is agitation in the media about allowing women to serve in the SAS, as shock troops, navy clearance divers, grunts etc.

good idea ? bad idea?

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...58-662,00.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin

[Bracko]

don't agree with it.

although sexual torture is not restricted to females there's a whole host of other problems that are brought into play when you pair men and women in that kind of situation.

leadership, ego's, basic physical differences, stress management, interpersonal relationships.... they all will cause (more) problems within a unit.

[phunkyp]

in the media? greg combet is the one putting this forward.

women in front line combat roles? no for all the obvious reasons, including capture, physical differences between men and women i.e. men can do more longer and general issues between men and women serving in the same section/platoon/company etc

idiotic.

[Elephanto]

Racists.

[trist]

I remember reading about studies done by the Israeli's into frontline women combat soldiers, and one of the outcomes was the increased psychological effect a wounded or killed woman has on the unit. It seems men generally have a harder time seeing women hurt or killed than their fellow men.

There are also the general physical concerns, and the likely sexual abuse in captivity (which is exceptionally rare for male POW’s btw).

But there is also an even more basic problem with women combat soldiers, and that is a nation is deliberately putting women of child bearing age in harms way. Human tribes and societies for millennia have survived by protecting their women, because women hold the key to the future of the tribe/society. Young men are disposable, young women are not.

[Fangoriously]

Let them pass exactly the same fitness requirements as men, carry exactly the same load as any other section member, keep up with the platoon and do so for extended periods of time.

If they can do that, then they can serve on the front line.

In my years in the military, I never once met a woman who could do that. Even the 'I'm a woman, here me roar' types eventually break down.

I know that's only anecdotal and I'm sure there are women out there who can keep up, but I don't think there are many, if any.

A blanket ban, though? Eh, they should be encouraged to try - but not have the standards watered down.

Bear in mind, though - the Australian Infantry fitness test includes a 15 kilometre route march in full kit in 2 and a bit hours. Then they need to be able to complete a section attack and firing drills to a pretty high degree of accuracy.

Infantry soldiers are usually the fittest soldiers around - SAS and any of the special forces branch doubly so. You'd have to be some sort of freakishly, olypmic grade sort of fit as a woman to keep up with those guys.

If you can do it, more power to you - but I really doubt that there are many, if any women out there who could seriously do it.

[dbb618]

in a war situation, what would happen to a female combat soldier when it was found she was pregnant?

continue to fight? immediate return home leaving a hole in the squad? fight for a few months?

does anyone know the IDF policy on this?

[Dr Bones]

bitches want equality, i say give it to 'em.

[Spectrum]

Would women seriously be so stupid enough to join the Western World's own 'holy war' and be invading countries, such as Iraq, do you think?

Right now, there's a bunch of countries - and Australia, this includes you - that seriously needs their head read before we work out more stupid reasons for more people to go out and kill and be killed.

The past near 10 years has been an absolute disgrace for the 'attack' forces of these participating countries and their oh-so-not-Christian-but-so-proudly-say-they-are government heads.

[weekender]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangoriously

Let them pass exactly the same fitness requirements as men, carry exactly the same load as any other section member, keep up with the platoon and do so for extended periods of time.

If they can do that, then they can serve on the front line.

In my years in the military, I never once met a woman who could do that. Even the 'I'm a woman, here me roar' types eventually break down.

I know that's only anecdotal and I'm sure there are women out there who can keep up, but I don't think there are many, if any.

A blanket ban, though? Eh, they should be encouraged to try - but not have the standards watered down.

Bear in mind, though - the Australian Infantry fitness test includes a 15 kilometre route march in full kit in 2 and a bit hours. Then they need to be able to complete a section attack and firing drills to a pretty high degree of accuracy.

Infantry soldiers are usually the fittest soldiers around - SAS and any of the special forces branch doubly so. You'd have to be some sort of freakishly, olypmic grade sort of fit as a woman to keep up with those guys.

If you can do it, more power to you - but I really doubt that there are many, if any women out there who could seriously do it.

This.

(Did serve with one lass who put most of my fellow officers to shame, both professionally and physically.)

[Dr Bones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

Would women seriously be so stupid enough to join the Western World's own 'holy war' and be invading countries, such as Iraq, do you think?

Right now, there's a bunch of countries - and Australia, this includes you - that seriously needs their head read before we work out more stupid reasons for more people to go out and kill and be killed.

The past near 10 years has been an absolute disgrace for the 'attack' forces of these participating countries and their oh-so-not-Christian-but-so-proudly-say-they-are government heads.

first off, why are women and smarter than men? that's just fucking retarded.

second off, the issue here isn't whether or not we should be going to wars with these countries, but whether women should be allowed on the front line. you're changing the subject.

third off, see above. take it to a thread about how shit the war in the middle east is, or start your own.

[Bism]

Only if they're mingers.

[Fangoriously]

They're pretty much all mingers, too.

And the ones who aren't - well, they tend to become bikes damn fast.

[Dr Bones]

bikes? as in everyone's had a ride?

[Laluna C]

What a fantastic topic to bring up in a forum that is 90% testosterone based.



Just sayin.....

[Vital]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laluna C

What a fantastic topic to bring up in a forum that is 90% testosterone based.



Just sayin.....

We keep the women out because they attract bears. Is that really what we want for our frontline troops, more bear attacks?

[Spectrum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bones

first off, why are women and smarter than men? that's just fucking retarded.

second off, the issue here isn't whether or not we should be going to wars with these countries, but whether women should be allowed on the front line. you're changing the subject.

third off, see above. take it to a thread about how shit the war in the middle east is, or start your own.

Is upholding order on an Australian dance music side forum more important?

Thread now about bikes, apparently.

[Dr Bones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

Is upholding order on an Australian dance music side forum more important?

obviously.

[krafty_x]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bracko

leadership, ego's, basic physical differences, stress management, interpersonal relationships.... they all will cause (more) problems within a unit.

And you'd never see these issues occur amongst men would you?

k_x oxo

[Dr Bones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krafty_x

And you'd never see these issues occur amongst men would you?

k_x oxo

never, especially not men in the army.

[dbb618]

one of the comments on the ABC article from some guy who claims to have served in the infantry for 30 years :

"When the Wallabies and the All Blacks feature women in the playing lineup, there will be women ready to be combat soldiers. "

[Dr Bones]

yeah, because comparing union and war is like two peas in a pod.

no wait, that other thing, apples and oranges.

you realise people who comment on articles on websites like that are no better, and often worse than, inthemix posters, right?

[twistedbydesign]

Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything.
Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls.
The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that.
But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes.

[Laluna C]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

We keep the women out because they attract bears. Is that really what we want for our frontline troops, more bear attacks?

Yes, yes I do.

[Fangoriously]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618

one of the comments on the ABC article from some guy who claims to have served in the infantry for 30 years :

"When the Wallabies and the All Blacks feature women in the playing lineup, there will be women ready to be combat soldiers. "

A bit exaggerated, obviously, but not that far away from the truth. For special forces, that is the truth and its no exaggeration at all.

[mogmac]

what positions are women currently able to hold? like artillery, or pilots... or is it purely in the support positions

[Fangoriously]

Pretty much everything.

Heaps of women in signals, intelligence, transport, military police, medical, engineering. They can serve on pretty much the entire blue water fleet (can't remember if they are allowed on subs...but I think they are).

They can do anything in the air force - I think maybe they can't be air field defence guards, as that's largely an infantry role.

They can't, as far as I can recall, be a front line infantry soldier, gun number (artillery), or tanker.

All sentimental bullshit aside, the reasons are pretty much physical. These areas are hard work, physically. There are lots and lots of men who can't do it, seriously the number is pretty high. That reduces the number of women able to do it to a very small percent.

I'd honestly say that if they can pass the requirements to do it, then they should be allowed to - but most of the time they simply can't.

[ianwil1976]

Bad move. You ever accidentally smack a woman in the tit?

Unless they went Amazonian they'd be complete liabilities.

[esoteric31]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangoriously

Let them pass exactly the same fitness requirements as men, carry exactly the same load as any other section member, keep up with the platoon and do so for extended periods of time.

If they can do that, then they can serve on the front line.

In my years in the military, I never once met a woman who could do that. Even the 'I'm a woman, here me roar' types eventually break down.

I know that's only anecdotal and I'm sure there are women out there who can keep up, but I don't think there are many, if any.

A blanket ban, though? Eh, they should be encouraged to try - but not have the standards watered down.

Bear in mind, though - the Australian Infantry fitness test includes a 15 kilometre route march in full kit in 2 and a bit hours. Then they need to be able to complete a section attack and firing drills to a pretty high degree of accuracy.

Infantry soldiers are usually the fittest soldiers around - SAS and any of the special forces branch doubly so. You'd have to be some sort of freakishly, olypmic grade sort of fit as a woman to keep up with those guys.

If you can do it, more power to you - but I really doubt that there are many, if any women out there who could seriously do it.

Everyone agree with this man, ricky-ticky

[trist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangoriously

I'd honestly say that if they can pass the requirements to do it, then they should be allowed to - but most of the time they simply can't.

How about in a large scale war situation where conscription is used and entry standards for general infantry, armour etc invariably drop? Many more women physically would then meet the revised lower standard. Which leads me to the question of whether in the event that conscription is used again should women be included?

[weekender]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangoriously

Heaps of women in signals, intelligence, transport, military police, medical, engineering. They can serve on pretty much the entire blue water fleet (can't remember if they are allowed on subs...but I think they are).

Scrub that, apparently since 1998

edit: following checking an awry assumption...

[Dr Bones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trist

whether in the event that conscription is used again should women be included?

yes.

[trist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bones

yes.

who is then going to (wo)man the factories and production lines, and all the other civilian services needed?

[magictorch]

I think women should be able to serve on the frontline, as long as they meet high fitness requirements. But only as prostitutes.

[magictorch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trist

who is then going to (wo)man the factories and production lines, and all the other civilian services needed?

[Kiron]

Quote:

Women as front line combat troops

The comments in the ABC one are a bit retarded.

"Huuuur duuur, There were women who fought in WW2 duuuur"

Yeah, and there were children who fought as well, in WW2 your country had the very real chance of being wiped from the face of the planet along with it's civilian population, EVERYONE contributed to the war effort, that is what happens in a TOTAL WAR scenario.

Lets extend this arguement, there are millions of children soldiers around the world that are vicious and kill millions of people, lets enroll children in the military as well.

[phunkyp]

physically women aren't the same as men but many women can do just as much in other ways. i remember reading about that russian female sniper who shot something like 300 german werhmacht troops during the nazi invasion during 41-45. US forces and australian also have many female pilots, some in attack roles.

as for rapes i also heard a lot of the mujahideen would cornhole captured russian soldiers during their invasion of afghanistan .....so it can go both ways.

[Kiron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunkyp

US forces and australian also have many female pilots, some in attack roles.

I need data on this.

To be a combat pilot you need to be the peak of physical perfection, fuck I knew someone who could crush humans in his hand and he ran for AIS but he still was not good enough to be one when going for it in the airforce.

[partyewe]

its a great idea. if she can hold her own and not let the team down, do it.

let people be their own gene pool selectahs.

[watsakerring]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron

I need data on this.

To be a combat pilot you need to be the peak of physical perfection, fuck I knew someone who could crush humans in his hand and he ran for AIS but he still was not good enough to be one when going for it in the airforce.

being a combat pilot is not only phisical fitness, it's all about being able to do about 10 things at once and having good decision making abilitys.

Women would probbably be better suited to it TBH...

[phunkyp]

data on female pilots...

US airforce: http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/fighters.html

china ( althought it could be commie propaganda )
http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/...t-fighter.html

australia, see nancy bird....plus we have women flying the C-17 we ordered from the US...

[big eddie]

Anyone woman who can pass the fitness/selection trials and training to be in the SAS or the CDTs is welcome to imo.

[Kiron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by watsakerring

being a combat pilot is not only phisical fitness, it's all about being able to do about 10 things at once and having good decision making abilitys.

Women would probbably be better suited to it TBH...

I don't think making a sandwich and cleaning the kitchen at the same time is really what they are looking for.

Spoiler:

sorry, way too easy

Serious though, I hear they have to have amazing eyesight as well to the point that they can look and read 2 things at the same time (eyes move sort of independent from eachover) not sure if this is a myth though.

I think the physical fitness for pilots is due to them being able to withstand the extreme G-forces on their body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunkyp

data on female pilots...

US airforce: http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/fighters.html

china ( althought it could be commie propaganda )
http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/...t-fighter.html

australia, see nancy bird....plus we have women flying the C-17 we ordered from the US...

wow didn't know that, their small size probably causes less G effects on their body

[macc4]

I would train the women as ninjas and send them off to fight pirates in Somalia

[Fangoriously]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron

I don't think making a sandwich and cleaning the kitchen at the same time is really what they are looking for.

Spoiler:

sorry, way too easy

Serious though, I hear they have to have amazing eyesight as well to the point that they can look and read 2 things at the same time (eyes move sort of independent from eachover) not sure if this is a myth though.

I think the physical fitness for pilots is due to them being able to withstand the extreme G-forces on their body.




wow didn't know that, their small size probably causes less G effects on their body

It's a myth. People looooove over doing it when it comes to people being pilots, special forces or whatever.

You have to have 20/20 eye sight, can't be colour blind or wear anything corrective - you don't have to be massively OMG super fit, you have to pass the airforce basic fitness test.

Which, to be frank, isn't that hard at all. I mean, you can't be couch potato o'fatass, but you also don't have to be super awesomely fit, either.

You get differing things with women as pilots. Generally smaller, so lower center of gravity + usually able to do higher G manouvers.

But you get over all lesser spacial awareness ability that detracts from that.

As to women being conscripted into front line roles - sure, why not. You'd have suffered fucking crazy attrition before you start having to really do it, but if needs must, off you go.

You can get an average bloke up to the acceptable level of fitness in a matter of months. It takes a lot longer to train women up to the same level.

Both genders are roughly equal when it comes to marksmanship etc (women are actually overall better - finer motion control overall and they don't hit the range thinking they are rambo from the get go. But then, taken as a whole population, men generally do shooting and hand-eye co-ordination more than women)

For Australia, though. We've got an population of over 20 million. We have an armed forces that is about 70,000, both full time and reserve.

You'd be looking at losing a couple of million men without losing any women at all before you started removing enough guys to start having women being competitive. I'd say we'd either have lost the war or lost our will to fight before that happened.

[phunkyp]

Israel is unique among nations in conscripting women, and assigns some drafted women to infantry combatant service which places them directly in the line of enemy fire.[10]. However, approximately one third of female conscripts (more than double the figure for men) are exempted, mainly for religious and nuptial reasons.

from wikicrapedia

[blkmrkt]

sign them up i say, dont see why they wouldnt do just as good a job as us men

[Bracko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krafty_x

And you'd never see these issues occur amongst men would you?

k_x oxo

hence the (more) comment.

it adds an extra dimension of problems which is not necessary.

[Carte Blanche]

[Kiron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunkyp

Israel is unique among nations in conscripting women, and assigns some drafted women to infantry combatant service which places them directly in the line of enemy fire.[10]. However, approximately one third of female conscripts (more than double the figure for men) are exempted, mainly for religious and nuptial reasons.

from wikicrapedia

Israel is also unique among first world nations as it uses children to test mine fields and disarm bombs.