The Main Room

Gay rights and gay marriage

Reply
  Tools
phoneyhuh +

3o~

phoneyhuh's Avatar
Joined
Jul '01
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 16
Thanked 208 Times in 131 Posts
Posts
8,070
Off-topic, but the 67 referendum wasn't about giving Aboriginals the vote, they had the vote in '49.

Back up on topic, sadly I can't see Australia following NZ's suit in the next 3 years at least, both parties have dug their heels in too deep. Even if a PM Abbott allowed a conscience vote, I couldn't see it passing.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 18-Apr-13 at 10:04am

Fangoriously +

Fusion Aerodynamical Science

Fangoriously's Avatar
Joined
Jun '07
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 660
Thanked 1,209 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3,882
Which is so ridiculous and out of touch. Fuck the wowsers and double fuck the hypocrites who aren't Christians and yet still support the bollocks of the status quo.
Aerodynamical Fusion Science Terminal Velocitising Scientician Experimentalising
VanBuurenisGod +

BRTG

VanBuurenisGod's Avatar
Joined
Mar '03
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 1,226
Thanked 2,962 Times in 1,670 Posts
Posts
24,317
http://gawker.com/5994884/this-incre...s-a-must+watch
"My biggest mentor is myself because I’ve had to study, so that’s been my biggest influence"


#BRTG
gravyishot +

this stupid facebook bar at the bottom is for ****s

gravyishot's Avatar
Joined
Mar '06
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 364
Thanked 934 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3
another non-compulsory voting state passes a progressive law. australia: at least six years from the same.
claude glass +

Registered User

claude glass's Avatar
Joined
Jun '10
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 25
Thanked 760 Times in 454 Posts
Posts
4,157

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

another non-compulsory voting state passes a progressive law. australia: at least six years from the same.

There is no logic there. In Kansas, where voting is also not compulsory, evolution has been dropped from the curriculum and there is currently a Bill, House Bill No. 2366, which is a proposed law that would make it illegal to use “public funds to promote or implement sustainable development.”
gravyishot +

this stupid facebook bar at the bottom is for ****s

gravyishot's Avatar
Joined
Mar '06
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 364
Thanked 934 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3
I would think Australia is closer in outlook to New Zealand than Kansas.
SpaceMonkey +

FOREVER DOLAN

SpaceMonkey's Avatar
Joined
Jul '02
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 515
Thanked 6,687 Times in 3,877 Posts
Posts
35,173
^I think NZ does have a fundamentally different social climate to Australia in some respects. Indigenous rights is the obvious one as Maori have a lot more power/influence and represent a much larger % of the population than Indigenous Australians, but less obviously NZ is a noticeably more secular country politically- I personally think that's because catholicism holds much less sway in NZ than here (due to the fact that NZ didn't anywhere near the same % of it's european migration from Ireland and Italy).

But yeah, more similarities to NZ than Kansas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

not liking yoda is like knocking back a root when presented nude in a YD change room

Quote:

Originally Posted by mischa21 View Post

^mmmm all this talk of meat is getting me excited.

claude glass +

Registered User

claude glass's Avatar
Joined
Jun '10
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 25
Thanked 760 Times in 454 Posts
Posts
4,157

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

I would think Australia is closer in outlook to New Zealand than Kansas.

Actually I think NZ is much more progressive than Australia.

I don't see why we could be sure non-compulsory voting in Australia would not actually push things further right.

About 80% of NZers vote. In many of the problem electorates in Sydney for example you can get legal votes at 89%.
gravyishot +

this stupid facebook bar at the bottom is for ****s

gravyishot's Avatar
Joined
Mar '06
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 364
Thanked 934 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3
Most Australian states abolished buggery laws before New Zealand did. Only the dumb states like Queensland, WA and Tasmania came after.

Modern political campaign techniques, unaligned swing voters that are socially conservative and the requirement to vote have all combined to make Australia a very politically conservative country.
claude glass +

Registered User

claude glass's Avatar
Joined
Jun '10
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 25
Thanked 760 Times in 454 Posts
Posts
4,157

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

Most Australian states abolished buggery laws before New Zealand did. Only the dumb states like Queensland, WA and Tasmania came after.

Modern political campaign techniques, unaligned swing voters that are socially conservative and the requirement to vote have all combined to make Australia a very politically conservative country.

Yeah I agree with the cause, but I'm just not convinced you'll stop the swingers. I saw an interview last night of someone in western Sydney angry that prices of goods have become unaffordable in the last few years (ridiculous) and that Gillard caused it. So I think you may just see campaigns to make people like that angry enough to vote. Gillard is the new secular devil.

I wish it was the solution but I can't see it working here. I'm actually reaching a state of despair. I've never seen so much ill-informed anger.
SpaceMonkey +

FOREVER DOLAN

SpaceMonkey's Avatar
Joined
Jul '02
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 515
Thanked 6,687 Times in 3,877 Posts
Posts
35,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

Most Australian states abolished buggery laws before New Zealand did. Only the dumb states like Queensland, WA and Tasmania came after.

Yeah homosexuality was only officially legalised in NZ in the early 80s- I actually remember when the Homosexual Law reform bill was passed and the debate surrounding it (which mostly consisted of god botherers making a bunch of noise).
NZ is kinda funny like that though- I'd say that up until the mid 80s it was probably more socially conservative than much of Australia and quite culturally backward generally. The country went through a pretty rapid phase of cultural growth and change in the 80s/90s due to a number of factors, to the point where I'd now say that NZ is more progressive than Australia as a whole these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

not liking yoda is like knocking back a root when presented nude in a YD change room

Quote:

Originally Posted by mischa21 View Post

^mmmm all this talk of meat is getting me excited.

Griggle +

If it is prophylactic and emphatically didactic, then it's not tactic."

Griggle's Avatar
Joined
May '02
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 3,222
Thanked 1,726 Times in 830 Posts
Posts
8,724

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

Most Australian states abolished buggery laws before New Zealand did. Only the dumb states like Queensland, WA and Tasmania came after.

SA(1975) decriminalised a full 11 years before New Zealand (1986) and the ACT did a couple of years after that.

For any other State (or New Zealand) to claim they finished much earlier than the others or that other states are backwards to them on social issues is a bit of a joke. Given WA, Queensland and the NT all have codified laws whereas all other States use common law comparison of "progressiveness" based on dates of law implementation is pretty much comparing apples and oranges. Sweeping changes to law will typically take longer to implement in a codified system.

Case in point: WA decriminalised in 1989 after NSW and the NT (who both decriminalised in 1984) but WA passed the Equal Opportunity Act in 1984 which made it illegal to discriminate based on sexual preference. WA the received legal advice that this hadn't gone far enough, which is why they introduced the decriminalisation bill in '89.

Tasmania was the only backwards State that ended up having to get forced to change their laws after losing a court case. South Australia and the ACT were the only two places ahead of the curve. All the other states (except maybe Queensland in 1990) began decriminalising within a 3 year period of each other (1981 -1984). It just took some States longer than others to finish the process.
Broadband speeds will always be lower under a Coalition Government.
phoneyhuh +

3o~

phoneyhuh's Avatar
Joined
Jul '01
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 16
Thanked 208 Times in 131 Posts
Posts
8,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

I personally think that's because catholicism holds much less sway in NZ than here (due to the fact that NZ didn't anywhere near the same % of it's european migration from Ireland and Italy).

I'm not convinced that Catholicism holds all that much sway in modern day politics. It's generally Protestants & Evangelicals who are more likely to hold conservative views than Catholics, but in any case you can look to Argentina, Uruguay, Spain, Portugal and some states in Mexico, Brazil & Venezuela - all nations and states where same-sex marriage has been completely legalised and all in staunchly Catholic societies.

If you want to talk about religious conservatism and oppression of gay rights, it's the Islamic world where the real knuckle-dragging neanderthals are of our time. Forget marriage, homosexuality is outlawed in all but just a few nations, with penalties ranging anything from lengthy jail sentences, to corporal punishment to public executions. In my opinion this is where global feminists & gay rights activists have got to turn their sights on and fight for change.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 18-Apr-13 at 09:06pm

jdoodle +

in on the killtaker

jdoodle's Avatar
Joined
Nov '01
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 2,204
Thanked 2,490 Times in 1,490 Posts
Posts
17,804
http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-sun-...418-2i1rm.html

very good speech
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill
jdoodle +

in on the killtaker

jdoodle's Avatar
Joined
Nov '01
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 2,204
Thanked 2,490 Times in 1,490 Posts
Posts
17,804

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

I'm not convinced that Catholicism holds all that much sway in modern day politics. It's generally Protestants & Evangelicals who are more likely to hold conservative views than Catholics, but in any case you can look to Argentina, Uruguay, Spain, Portugal and parts of Mexico & Venezuela - all nations and states where same-sex marriage has been completely legalised and all in staunchly Catholic societies.

If you want to talk about religious conservatism and oppression of gay rights, it's the Islamic world where the real knuckle-dragging neanderthals are of our time. Forget marriage, homosexuality is outlawed in all but just a few nations, with penalties ranging anything from jailtime, to corporal punishment to public executions. In my opinion this is where global feminists & gay rights activists have got to turn their sights on and fight for change.

when in doubt blame the towelheads, that makes our position seem not so bad...........
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill
SpaceMonkey +

FOREVER DOLAN

SpaceMonkey's Avatar
Joined
Jul '02
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 515
Thanked 6,687 Times in 3,877 Posts
Posts
35,173
I mainly mentioned Catholicism because there seems to be a definite catholic power bloc in both the major parties here and George Pell also has a pretty high profile. It doesn't have that sort of profile in NZ.
It seems to be something uniquely Australian though- I've actually heard Irish people comment on how they thought Australuan society was actually more religious than Ireland.
phoneyhuh +

3o~

phoneyhuh's Avatar
Joined
Jul '01
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 16
Thanked 208 Times in 131 Posts
Posts
8,070
Fair enough, I haven't spent enough time in NZ (nor Ireland for that matter) to really notice the nuances. But you Kiwi's really do need a better national anthem. What with all the God this and God that, you'd be better off just with the Haka.
Geezah +

Raaaaaaaaaaaaarrghh

Geezah's Avatar
Joined
Sep '03
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 3,823
Thanked 1,844 Times in 1,176 Posts
Posts
12,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

I mainly mentioned Catholicism because there seems to be a definite catholic power bloc in both the major parties here and George Pell also has a pretty high profile. It doesn't have that sort of profile in NZ.
It seems to be something uniquely Australian though- I've actually heard Irish people comment on how they thought Australuan society was actually more religious than Ireland.

I don't think Australia is religious at all really, and I'd agree with Phoney that Catholics here are quite progressive anyway. Maybe Catholicism stands out because we are quite irreligious as a country, and it (Catholicism) has a profile.

And I don't think Australia (as a whole and generally speaking) is that conservative: we are just scared of change even though we are quite use to it. We are gullible worriers.
Avatar artist: Dain Fagerholm
phoneyhuh +

3o~

phoneyhuh's Avatar
Joined
Jul '01
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 16
Thanked 208 Times in 131 Posts
Posts
8,070
Case in point; Barry O'Farrell, himself a Catholic has thrown his support hat in the ring: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...418-2i31b.html
gravyishot +

this stupid facebook bar at the bottom is for ****s

gravyishot's Avatar
Joined
Mar '06
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 364
Thanked 934 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3
Yeah SpaceMonkey is right, all the prominent ultra conservative MPs are Catholic. Conroy, Bernardi, Abbott, Andrews - all Catholics. Probably the biggest obstacle to Labor caucus approving gay marriage is union leader Joe De Bruyn, again, a Catholic.

The Catholic Church's best trick is making people think they're not as powerful as they are.
claude glass +

Registered User

claude glass's Avatar
Joined
Jun '10
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 25
Thanked 760 Times in 454 Posts
Posts
4,157

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

Yeah homosexuality was only officially legalised in NZ in the early 80s- I actually remember when the Homosexual Law reform bill was passed and the debate surrounding it (which mostly consisted of god botherers making a bunch of noise).
NZ is kinda funny like that though- I'd say that up until the mid 80s it was probably more socially conservative than much of Australia and quite culturally backward generally. The country went through a pretty rapid phase of cultural growth and change in the 80s/90s due to a number of factors, to the point where I'd now say that NZ is more progressive than Australia as a whole these days.

I'm not sure I agree there SpaceMonkey. I think NZ has been progressive for longer than that, for example there is a long history of environmental activism dating much earlier (although environmentalism could be construed as conservative).

In my opinion what has actually happened is Australia has become much more politically conservative especially since around 2001.
The3rdPlumpDj +

Registered User

The3rdPlumpDj's Avatar
Joined
Jun '05
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Posts
186

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

Yeah SpaceMonkey is right, all the prominent ultra conservative MPs are Catholic. Conroy, Bernardi, Abbott, Andrews - all Catholics. Probably the biggest obstacle to Labor caucus approving gay marriage is union leader Joe De Bruyn, again, a Catholic.

The Catholic Church's best trick is making people think they're not as powerful as they are.

yes, the catholics are fucking the whole show up for everyone...

Gillard is a atheist, swans a non practising christian, both of which are apparently in charge of this country (for now), and both of them do not support it...

the majority of australians support gay marriage, what have got to lose?

or they just think showing steadfastly opposition to everything the people want (or do not want) is a good political strategy?
gravyishot +

this stupid facebook bar at the bottom is for ****s

gravyishot's Avatar
Joined
Mar '06
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 364
Thanked 934 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3
I guess you just don't understand how the Labor party works, The3rdPlumpDj.

Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

In my opinion what has actually happened is Australia has become much more politically conservative especially since around 2001.

A disproportionate reaction to the events of September 11.
The3rdPlumpDj +

Registered User

The3rdPlumpDj's Avatar
Joined
Jun '05
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Posts
186
I don't know how anyone could understand the absurdist fiction that comes out of the labor party tbh
claude glass +

Registered User

claude glass's Avatar
Joined
Jun '10
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 25
Thanked 760 Times in 454 Posts
Posts
4,157

Quote:

Originally Posted by The3rdPlumpDj View Post

I don't know how anyone could understand the absurdist fiction that comes out of the labor party tbh

You mean absurd fiction. Unless you see the Labor party as a party which takes a position in the philosophical discourse regarding the nature of reality and existence. If that's what you mean I say that would be an awesome party.
gravyishot +

this stupid facebook bar at the bottom is for ****s

gravyishot's Avatar
Joined
Mar '06
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 364
Thanked 934 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3

Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

You mean absurd fiction. Unless you see the Labor party as a party which takes a position in the philosophical discourse regarding the nature of reality and existence. If that's what you mean I say that would be an awesome party.

lol yep.
Geezah +

Raaaaaaaaaaaaarrghh

Geezah's Avatar
Joined
Sep '03
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 3,823
Thanked 1,844 Times in 1,176 Posts
Posts
12,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by The3rdPlumpDj View Post

I don't know how anyone could understand the absurdist fiction that comes out of the labor party tbh

The Coalition have a direction towards stupidity.

Hang on, yo - surplusses. Fuck Yiaeeah!
Avatar artist: Dain Fagerholm

Last edited by Geezah: 20-Apr-13 at 02:45am

gotamangina +

o.O

gotamangina's Avatar
Joined
May '07
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 13,750
Thanked 9,243 Times in 4,157 Posts
Posts
11,496
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but something that occurred to me the other day:

I predict that with the gay marriage laws changing in so many places at the same time, there is going to be a disproportionate amount of people getting married because they're swept up in the excitement of it all. In a couple of years there will be the inevitable divorces & statistics will then be thrown around by arseholes trying to show that gay marriage doesn't work.

I suppose it's too late to change anything by then & it doesn't really matter, but I imagine the right-leaning parties will feel vindicated.
Fewsion +

Registered troll

Fewsion's Avatar
Joined
Oct '03
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 634
Thanked 104 Times in 89 Posts
Posts
3,663
I think that anyone who would argue that would have it quickly pointed out that heterosexual marriage rates are declining and divorce rates are rising. I don't see the same vindication coming from the stats as you do.
SpaceMonkey +

FOREVER DOLAN

SpaceMonkey's Avatar
Joined
Jul '02
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 515
Thanked 6,687 Times in 3,877 Posts
Posts
35,173
^I don't think she sees any vindication coming from those potential stats, but its inevitable someone will.
Fewsion +

Registered troll

Fewsion's Avatar
Joined
Oct '03
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 634
Thanked 104 Times in 89 Posts
Posts
3,663
I didn't mean that, should've expressed it better.

"I don't see there being any vindication for conservatives in those stats" for the reasons already stated.
SpaceMonkey +

FOREVER DOLAN

SpaceMonkey's Avatar
Joined
Jul '02
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 515
Thanked 6,687 Times in 3,877 Posts
Posts
35,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

I'm not sure I agree there SpaceMonkey. I think NZ has been progressive for longer than that, for example there is a long history of environmental activism dating much earlier (although environmentalism could be construed as conservative).

In my opinion what has actually happened is Australia has become much more politically conservative especially since around 2001.

I'm fairly au fait with the NZ cultural landscape having grown up there and lived there until 2002.
While you're right re NZ having a history of being progressive on environmental issues (and to a lesser extent race relations) it was still a pretty conservative society overall until at least the mid-80s. Those two aspects were more a result of specific parts in NZ history/geography than any inherently progressive tendencies.
claude glass +

Registered User

claude glass's Avatar
Joined
Jun '10
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 25
Thanked 760 Times in 454 Posts
Posts
4,157

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

I'm fairly au fait with the NZ cultural landscape having grown up there and lived there until 2002.
While you're right re NZ having a history of being progressive on environmental issues (and to a lesser extent race relations) it was still a pretty conservative society overall until at least the mid-80s. Those two aspects were more a result of specific parts in NZ history/geography than any inherently progressive tendencies.

I was born there too in fact I'm part Maori. (Who isn't?) I read a great analysis of race relations that proposed the feudal nature of Maori had a lot to do with being able to negotiate the Treaty, particularly compared to indigenous Australians. I've doen quite a bit of environmental work there in the last few years. I still think there is a greater sensitivity to environment there.
SpaceMonkey +

FOREVER DOLAN

SpaceMonkey's Avatar
Joined
Jul '02
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 515
Thanked 6,687 Times in 3,877 Posts
Posts
35,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

I was born there too in fact I'm part Maori. (Who isn't?) I read a great analysis of race relations that proposed the feudal nature of Maori had a lot to do with being able to negotiate the Treaty, particularly compared to indigenous Australians.

Basically yeah. Very different situations pre-contact, and one was definitely better equipped to resist complete European domination than the other for multiple reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

II've doen quite a bit of environmental work there in the last few years. I still think there is a greater sensitivity to environment there.

Yeah I'd agree, though I don't think other progressive tendencies necessarily go along with it.
jarrardscott +

I start arguments then blame everyone else, and now I have this shitty My Little Pony icon

jarrardscott's Avatar
Joined
Aug '06
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 7,385
Thanked 5,000 Times in 2,101 Posts
Posts
29,960
Here's a whopper of a question to throw around in your mind.

A main argument for marriage equality is that the secular state is supposed to be neutral of religion and a religious pov is being forced onto it.

so if we agree to marriage equality (which i personally am for btw), should polygamy be allowed too?
Fangoriously +

Fusion Aerodynamical Science

Fangoriously's Avatar
Joined
Jun '07
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 660
Thanked 1,209 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3,882
I've no problem with it
Aerodynamical Fusion Science Terminal Velocitising Scientician Experimentalising
Geezah +

Raaaaaaaaaaaaarrghh

Geezah's Avatar
Joined
Sep '03
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 3,823
Thanked 1,844 Times in 1,176 Posts
Posts
12,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

Here's a whopper of a question to throw around in your mind.

A main argument for marriage equality is that the secular state is supposed to be neutral of religion and a religious pov is being forced onto it.

so if we agree to marriage equality (which i personally am for btw), should polygamy be allowed too?

The main issue I have with polygamy is around property rights.

I think it becomes a massive issue if you have 1 man married to say 5 women. Then say 2 of those women are married to 3 men each and 1 each of those men has 4 wives each. If a divorce happens in 2 of those cases I think it becomes a big fucking mess and could cause all kinds of deprivation to spouses and children that have only a nominal connection to the divorcing parties.

Legally it is massively fraught with danger I would have thought. I have no problem with polyamory though. An argument could be made that it is probably a more natural state than monogamous relationships, at least for some people: polyamory does require honesty though from all involved that this is the relationship structure being entered into. It doesn't work if some bloke or woman are secret polyamorists, that's just them being cheating arseholes without the courage to say how they want to live their lives.

tl;dr - I think there are far too many legal complications in allowing the sanctioning of polygamy under the law (also it is often used in a very paternalistic sense so that a religious man can have as many wives as he wants but the wives can not have as many husbands as they want - in a secular society, under the law, both men and women would have the legal right to multiple spouses).
Avatar artist: Dain Fagerholm
Fangoriously +

Fusion Aerodynamical Science

Fangoriously's Avatar
Joined
Jun '07
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 660
Thanked 1,209 Times in 525 Posts
Posts
3,882
This is a glib response and you deserve better, Geezh, but I'm in a bit of rush - but ultimately, I don't think 'it's hard' is really enough of a reason to say no to something like that.
Aerodynamical Fusion Science Terminal Velocitising Scientician Experimentalising
Geezah +

Raaaaaaaaaaaaarrghh

Geezah's Avatar
Joined
Sep '03
Times thanked
<
Thanks: 3,823
Thanked 1,844 Times in 1,176 Posts
Posts
12,935

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangoriously View Post

This is a glib response and you deserve better, Geezh, but I'm in a bit of rush - but ultimately, I don't think 'it's hard' is really enough of a reason to say no to something like that.


My point is more about a party not being privy to a contract i.e. [a] man/men or woman/women at one end of a polygamous chain of relationships not entering into a marriage contract, being affected materially by the breakdown of the relationship they aren't privy too. It seems there is no way to get round that in a legal sense. Third parties should not be materially impacted by the actions happening between a first and second party.

edit: FYI I don't really have an issue with it as long as there is full disclosure of all relationships being entered into and that it isn't the sole preserve of men. Polygamy and polyamory I would've thought isn't likely to ever become the norm anyway.
Avatar artist: Dain Fagerholm
Reply

« Previous Thread Next Thread »

Posting Rules

+
    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts