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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

the greens amendment
Migration Legislation Amendment (The Bali Process) Bill 2012

(Second reading amendment to be moved by the Leader of the Australian Greens, Senator Milne, on behalf of herself and Senator Hanson-Young)

At the end of the motion, add:

but the Senate:

(a) calls on the Government to take immediate action to:

(i) provide safe pathways for refugees to discourage people taking life threatening journeys;
(ii) increase Australia’s humanitarian intake from 13,750 to 20,000, including additional places to be immediately allocated to targeted resettlement of 1,000 people from Indonesia and 4,000 people from Malaysia;
(iii) immediately increase funding to United Nations High Commission for Refugees by $10 million to boost the capacity of Refugee Status Determination assessments in Malaysia and Indonesia;
(iv) establish a multi-party committee, charged with developing a framework for a long-term regional solution which is underpinned by the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees and the related 1967 Protocol;
(v) enter urgent discussions between Australia and Indonesia to address the critical need for cooperation and effectiveness of intelligence sharing and resourcing between Australia and Indonesia in order to save lives at sea;
(vi) codify Australia's Safety of Life at Sea Convention 1974 obligations across all relevant government agencies and increase Australia's rescue capacity in Australia's northern waters;

and

(b) resolves that a message be sent to the House of Representatives immediately to acquaint it with this resolution


which would cost less then the 1 billion naaru will cost

How are they going to ensure motion (i)? And how do they reconcile madatory detention in Indonesia and Malaysia with their policy of community processing in Australia?

All they are proposing to do is kick the can along the road, while providing no disincentive or certainty. Thereby attracting more people from Afghanistan, Iraq, etc to travel to Indonesia in an attempt to get to Australia.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvoZ View Post

But you are just setting up another queue in the line of queues.
People are going to bypass it and jump straight on a boat if we process all boat arrivals here on shore. It seems like a nothing solution to me.

What if only the initial processing is done in Malaysia/Indonesia? Women, children and well documented cases could be moved from there into community settlement here (where possible), while the difficult cases are moved into detention here.

I largely agree with the position of the Greens.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

How are they going to ensure motion (i)? And how do they reconcile madatory detention in Indonesia and Malaysia with their policy of community processing in Australia?

All they are proposing to do is kick the can along the road, while providing no disincentive or certainty. Thereby attracting more people from Afghanistan, Iraq, etc to travel to Indonesia in an attempt to get to Australia.

you are assuming once they speak to UN they get put in detention, why? They could also assist fund the detention, presumably when the PM meets the Indo PM next week it will be covered in some detail.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

you are assuming once they speak to UN they get put in detention, why? They could also assist fund the detention, presumably when the PM meets the Indo PM next week it will be covered in some detail.

Because that's what the Indonesians do with people seeking asylum. They lock them up.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiasticSlide View Post

What if only the initial processing is done in Malaysia/Indonesia? Women, children and well documented cases could be moved from there into community settlement here (where possible), while the difficult cases are moved into detention here.

I largely agree with the position of the Greens.

So how are they moved to Australia after the initial processing then? Chartered flights paid by the Australian Government is the most likely way. When word spreads that all you need to do is get to Indonesia and the Australian Government will then fly you to Sydney or Melbourne to live in the community there would be a tsunami. The Greens better up their quota from 20,000 to 100,000 then.
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Last edited by trist: 28-Jun-12 at 01:52pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

So how are they moved to Australia then? Chartered flights paid by the Australian Government is the most likely way. When word spreads that all you need to do is get to Indonesia and the Australian Government will then fly you to Sydney or Melbourne to live in the community there would be a tsunami. The Greens better up their quota from 20,000 to 100,000 then.

moved to oz after they pass you mean?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

moved to oz after they pass you mean?

What is initial processing? I am presuming it checks to find out whether they could pose a health or safety risk to the Australian community. Their refugee status would then be determined whilst living in the Australian community. Is this what ChiasticSlide means, and what the Greens want when they refer to increased funding for the UNHCR in Indonesia and safe passage? In any event, it is difficult to do the initial processing when people are without documentation, or have false documentation…..therefore an extended time in detention in Indonesia awaits. Whichever way you slice it the Greens approach is ill-conceived flawed policy steeped in ideology.
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Last edited by trist: 28-Jun-12 at 02:50pm

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my understanding, and it is limited, is that they are declared as genuine refugee's in indonesia which means they can move to oz, the processing process would be the same as they experience here or in Naaru etc
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turn the boats back and increase our humanitarian intake, pretty fucking simple.

the greens are fucking idiots.........i nearly lost my shit when i heard that imbecile Milne last night and that other fuckwit hansen-young today. This is the quality of politicians we have in this country..........god help us
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turn the boats back hey? explain to me how that works?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

my understanding, and it is limited, is that they are declared as genuine refugee's in indonesia which means they can move to oz, the processing process would be the same as they experience here or in Naaru etc

So again I ask how do they reconcile mandatory detention in Indonesia and Malaysia with community processing in Australia? They cannot.
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I guess they are asking that as part of regional cooperation they are proposing, that the respective governments dont do it, I dont know the answer to that one, I cannot see anything on their site about it, and Leigh Sales didnt let her answer any questions last night on it
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

turn the boats back hey? explain to me how that works?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

turn the boats back hey? explain to me how that works?

simple*
if a boat comes, use the Navy to turn it around at gunpoint.
If it sinks trying to return to shore and everyone dies, who gives a fuck...the news should stop the next boatload trying.


*this is only a simple proposition for those who's minds are so simple they cannot forsee consequences of government sanctioned manslaughter.
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In a perverse kind of way I'm looking forward to Tony failing hard when he re-implements the Pacific Solution and the boats keep coming. I guess Australians won't care as long as the darkies aren't being processed here.

Placing bets on how many boats Tony turns around before one sinks and everyone dies and Australia becomes the butt of international condemnation...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

simple*
if a boat comes, use the Navy to turn it around at gunpoint.
If it sinks trying to return to shore and everyone dies, who gives a fuck...the news should stop the next boatload trying.


*this is only a simple proposition for those who's minds are so simple they cannot forsee consequences of government sanctioned manslaughter.

how many drowned at sea during the pacific solution? how many have drowned at sea since? On that basis, the only people guilty of manslaughter are kevin rudd and julia gillard
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You must have missed my post before buffed.

353 people drowned on Siev X during the Pacific Solution.

Nowhere near that amount has drowned since.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by custaro View Post

You must have missed my post before buffed.

353 people drowned on Siev X during the Pacific Solution.

Nowhere near that amount has drowned since.

c'mon dude, give it up seriously. the sievx went down 70km from Java and within 3 weeks of the pacific solution being announced. since 2002, the number of boats was drastically reduced...........as soon as the rudd government came into power and it sropped the policy, the number of arrivals started again and drastically increased and stayed at these levels. you can say whatever you want about the pacific solution but whether you agreed with it or not it had a major impact on stopping the flow of boats and with it, the risk of people drowning at sea
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^yeah custaro, its hardly fair to include those deaths in the "pacific solution" figures. They occurred in the Indian, rather than pacific ocean...buffed logic :Lol:

In 2001 John Howard directed that passengers on an asylum seeker vessel were not to be rescued until their boat had sunk. We saw this dangerous and heartless policy in play in the case of the 'Children Overboard' boat, SIEV 4. This vessel had sent up a 'Mayday' flag calling for help. It was subsequently taken under tow by the Adelaide and towed for 24 hours till it foundered. It was not until all 223 people were fighting for their lives in the water that the Adelaide was permitted to go to the rescue.
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Rudd fucked up and the Government is still paying for it.
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yeah, lets ignore the push factors happening in the countries these people are fleeing because that doesnt have any impact
pfft
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^why did the figures go up so much from 1998-2001? was it as a result of policy change?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

yeah, lets ignore the push factors happening in the countries these people are fleeing because that doesnt have any impact
pfft

Still living in a fantasy land I see. I don’t even hear the ALP trotting out the “push factors” line anymore.
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you only present one side, who is living in fantasy land? you and your turn back the boats mates are
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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

^why did the figures go up so much from 1998-2001? was it as a result of policy change?

yeah no doubt, because over in Iraq and the rest of the middle east they follow Australian politics closely, just ask Trist
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

yeah, lets ignore the push factors happening in the countries these people are fleeing because that doesnt have any impact
pfft

LOL......here we go again
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http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...628-2156z.html
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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

^why did the figures go up so much from 1998-2001? was it as a result of policy change?

They started going up in early 1999 and Howard then introduced TPV which then massively increased the numbers, and the proportion of women and children. Prior to 1999 all most arrivals by boat were single men, then TPV came in and the single men didn’t have access to family reunion so entire families started to make journeys thus rapidly increasing the overall number of arrivals. Therefore Howard also fucked up. Excising Christmas Island from the migration zone and off-shore processing in late 2001 fixed the problem. In 2001, 5516 people illegally arrived boat. In 2002, 1 person illegally arrived by boat.
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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

LOL......here we go again

buffed...if you think the numbers are simply related to policy, then why dont you explain why the spike occurred from 1998-2001? Did Howard "soften his approach" during that period?
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

yeah no doubt, because over in Iraq and the rest of the middle east they follow Australian politics closely, just ask Trist

Another fantasy land line that has no basis. People smuggling is a business and they sell a service. They are sophisticated enough to keep up to date with the basics of government policy to sell to potential customers. The evidence demonstrates this.
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It's the dumbest thing i've read.

I have no problem with increasing the immigration intake, but the issue is that those boarding boats are not prepared to wait in the queue. The only way to stop them risking their own lives is to stop the boats, irrespective of whether you increase immigration intakes or not. The best way to do that is to reontroduce the pacific solution or call it another name if you don't like to admit it worked.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

They started going up in early 1999 and Howard then introduced TPV which then massively increased the numbers, and the proportion of women and children. Prior to 1999 all most arrivals by boat were single men, then TPV came in and the single men didn’t have access to family reunion so entire families started to make journeys thus rapidly increasing the overall number of arrivals. Therefore Howard also fucked up. Excising Christmas Island from the migration zone and off-shore processing in late 2001 fixed the problem. In 2001, 5516 people illegally arrived boat. In 2002, 1 person illegally arrived by boat.

from 500 to 5000 in a year?
that would assume that each single male was accompanied by an average of 10 women and children
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

It's the dumbest thing i've read.

I have no problem with increasing the immigration intake, but the issue is that those boarding boats are not prepared to wait in the queue. The only way to stop them risking their own lives is to stop the boats, irrespective of whether you increase immigration intakes or not. The best way to do that is to reontroduce the pacific solution or call it another name if you don't like to admit it worked.

thats not the only way buffed. you could also stop them risking their lives by providing decent boats, for example.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

Another fantasy land line that has no basis. People smuggling is a business and they sell a service. They are sophisticated enough to keep up to date with the basics of government policy to sell to potential customers. The evidence demonstrates this.

exactly...supply and demand. war in Iraq=displacement=more customers
you might like to deny it but that a "push factor"
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Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

buffed...if you think the numbers are simply related to policy, then why dont you explain why the spike occurred from 1998-2001? Did Howard "soften his approach" during that period?

the pacific solution was introduced in 2002. are you that stupid or can you just not handle the fact that the policy actually actually worked to deter boats?
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Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

thats not the only way buffed. you could also stop them risking their lives by providing decent boats, for example.

you're shitting me right?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

from 500 to 5000 in a year?
that would assume that each single male was accompanied by an average of 10 women and children

It didn't go from 500 to 5000 in a year.

These are the figures:

Jan-Oct 1999: 1761 people arrived (prior to TPV)
Nov-Dec 1999: 1975 people arrived (after TPV)
2000: 2946 people arrived

They started rising in 1998-99 mainly because of the Taliban’s asserting their control over Afghan society. This “push factor” was increasing during this period (98-01), then jumped up again in late 2001 and early 2002 as the country was in turmoil from the Northern Alliance/US-Taliban war. Yes right at the time when the “push factors” were at their height, the pacific solution was implemented by Howard and illegal boat arrivals dropped to almost zero.

Then the US invaded Iraq in 2003, and the number of illegal boat arrivals still remained very low and stayed low during the subsequent insurgency. It was only when Rudd came to power in 2007 and made a big song and dance about scrapping the pacific solution and having a more humanitarian programme that the numbers started rapidly increasing again.
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Last edited by trist: 29-Jun-12 at 09:59am

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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

you're shitting me right?

if you are concerned that asylum seekers dont drown at sea in crap boats, then a way to solve that problem is to provide seaworthy boats to make the trip. or plane flights. solves the problem you have concerns with. as you said you are happy to raise the intake levels...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

if you are concerned that asylum seekers dont drown at sea in crap boats, then a way to solve that problem is to provide seaworthy boats to make the trip. or plane flights. solves the problem you have concerns with. as you said you are happy to raise the intake levels...

i'm happy to raise the intake to 20,000 and have them processed in the same way we are currently doing. the policy doesn't need changing from the current system. but they need to apply and have their claims heard.
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I'm still yet to meet an asylum seeker, neither boat person nor plane person

except for the Vietnamese, I'm talking recent arrival
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^ I used to work with an asylum seeker from Afghanistan, actually, he's really lovely, he's in charge now of a lot of integration programs aimed at african and middle eastern arrivals, moving and shaking as one would expect, he's also involved in other community projects aimed at youth health and violence prevention.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

i'm happy to raise the intake to 20,000 and have them processed in the same way we are currently doing. the policy doesn't need changing from the current system. but they need to apply and have their claims heard.

the policy doesnt need changing? there seems to be universal acceptance from all sides of politics that the current system is a disaster. currently the only way people can get processed is by getting on a boat.
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^ I actually met an asylum seeker from Afghanistan a few weeks ago at a party. He'd come via boat in the year 2000... I think he mentioned he was part of the people who had made an (attempted) escape from Villawood or something??? He mentioned it was one of the first major revolts. I was a bit inebriated so I can't remember the exact details (and I can't remember many politics from a decade ago cos I was probably too ignorant). I think it was big news at the time

He was pretty candid about the whole thing. Many suicides. Deplorable conditions. Hunger Strikes. No indication as to when you may actually speak to a case worker. awful stuff. He mentioned something else interesting. The people who answered honestly and played by the rules and whom were genuinely seeking asylum were often the ones who were treated the worst. The dodgies who "played the game" and lied about their background were often processed and released quick smart.

He was pissed off about that aspect. He didn't lie about any of his circumstances, but watched other people lie through their teeth and get released. That sparked the eventual riot.

I recently also read the story about Ahmed al-Kateb. 7 years in detention. Eventually released into Australia and now he's a citizen. 7 fucking years. What was the fucking point? It almost made me cry.

Make no mistake, detention centers are fucking evil. I don't care where they are. Nauru, Malaysia, on our shores, fucking evil. No one should have to be detained without any indication of release. I don't know what the future policy is going to be, but the focus should be on speedy processing, that's for damn sure

Fuck you everyone involved in asylum seeker policy. I hope you all rot in hell*









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Last edited by Weinertron: 29-Jun-12 at 10:20am

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http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...629-216da.html

This whole argument kind of relies on the fact that you are dealing with rational people... obviously that isnt the case, rational people generally dont risk their lives by getting on some kind of ridiculous excuse for a boat and then travel for however long to get to another country with the hope of being locked up for a period of time and possibly assuming them make it alive, and are then processed and live through the detention centre, maybe they will get resettled, and not sent back to their country of origin, but try it anyway because well, what other choice do they have!?

Bah humbug.

Just as an aside...

Six issues 'missing from the asylum seeker debate'

Quote:

1.

No one is talking about the UNHCR having such a small number of officers processing asylum claims in Indonesia. It is impossible for this tiny cohort to process any reasonable number of applications. According to the International Organisation for Migration, from January 1 to May 31 this year, 24 refugees were resettled from Indonesia to Australia. That’s from a pool of 5732 asylum seekers and refugees.
2.

No one is talking about the relationship of people smuggling (as an illicit activity) to the licit regulation of entry into Australia. Australia’s universal visa system deems entire groups “high-risk”. For example, those from Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and Sri Lanka are routinely denied visas that would enable them to arrive legitimately by air. These groups are not considered risky because they represent a significant security threat (for, say, terrorism or serious crime), but because they may engage Australia’s protection obligations. No one is talking about changing these risk profiles and visa issuing practices.
3.

No one is talking about what happens to those who are prevented from coming to Australia (subject to disruption or deterrence regimes) or whether this is a desirable objective for a nation such as Australia. Preventing or deterring people from coming to Australia does not mean persecution stops. Instead, those being persecuted become some other country’s problem. This surely is an unsustainable contribution to regional (let alone) global relations.
4.

No one is talking about the role parliament and politicians have played in fuelling the high-octane political debate that has seen Australia engage in a race to lead the world in some of the most punitive and demonising arrangements for asylum seekers. While we need to grieve for the lives lost and seek to prevent future loss we should do so by keeping in perspective the scale of Australia’s asylum seeker ‘problem’ and enable less reactionary approaches to refugee protection and irregular border crossing.
5.

No one is talking about decoupling the zero-sum game between refugees settled from offshore, and onshore arrival numbers (in which as arrivals increase, offshore resettlement places go down). This is a policy change that could end the mindless pitching of one group of refugees against another.
6.

No one is talking about the invisibility of border-related deaths in Australia. There is no official cumulative record of who has died en route and post-entry into Australia and why. Both the EU and the US have records of border related deaths. The Border Observatory database of Australian border-related deaths is the only cumulative record that enables us to robustly analyse these deaths and consider issues of accountability that go beyond the simplistic refrains regarding “evil people smugglers”. A glance at this database shows the deaths of asylum seekers at sea are but one kind of death among many others, which also need to be recognised. For example, deaths in Australian immigration detention centres are not considered deaths “in custody” for the purpose of the monitoring program run by the Australian Institute of Criminology.

Taken from http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...seeker-debate-

Last edited by smorchika: 29-Jun-12 at 10:46am

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

the policy doesnt need changing? there seems to be universal acceptance from all sides of politics that the current system is a disaster. currently the only way people can get processed is by getting on a boat.

BS it is. Typically the Chinese are ahead of the game. Fly in to Australia on a tourist or student visa, claim asylum because they claim to be Falun Gong and have local corrupt Chinese-Australian migration agents provide false documentation and help them through the appeals process.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-1...claims/3892416
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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

I have no problem with increasing the immigration intake, but the issue is that those boarding boats are not prepared to wait in the queue.

Incorrect. The overwhelming majority of 'boat people' are assessed to be genuine refugees. There can be no 'queue' for these people. This has been proven time and time again and you know it.

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Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

^ I used to work with an asylum seeker from Afghanistan, actually, he's really lovely, he's in charge now of a lot of integration programs aimed at african and middle eastern arrivals, moving and shaking as one would expect, he's also involved in other community projects aimed at youth health and violence prevention.

That's the problem, he needs to adapt more to our way of life. Drinking, gambling, posting on facebook and getting the biggest TV he can.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Davomaxi View Post

Incorrect. The overwhelming majority of 'boat people' are assessed to be genuine refugees. There can be no 'queue' for these people. This has been proven time and time again and you know it.

and the greens are proposing setting up queues for them to join ffs
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