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Originally Posted by Davomaxi View Post

Incorrect. The overwhelming majority of 'boat people' are assessed to be genuine refugees. There can be no 'queue' for these people. This has been proven time and time again and you know it.

tell that to other genuine refugees who don't have the money to give to people smugglers to get on a boat, who's only chance is to go through the proper procedures.

A refugee from Afghanistan who was fleeing for their lives would go to the nearest safe haven, not pay to board a boat to risk their lives going to a country 20,000km's away.They want to come to Australia and that's wat they are paying for
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Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...629-216da.html

This whole argument kind of relies on the fact that you are dealing with rational people... obviously that isnt the case, rational people generally dont risk their lives by getting on some kind of ridiculous excuse for a boat and then travel for however long to get to another country with the hope of being locked up for a period of time and possibly assuming them make it alive, and are then processed and live through the detention centre, maybe they will get resettled, and not sent back to their country of origin, but try it anyway because well, what other choice do they have!?

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...seeker-debate-

they are taking a calculated risk. don't be so naive. of course they are rational people.......you make it sound like they are intellectually handicapped. They are prepared to pay money to take a calculated risk to specifically come to Australia.
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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

tell that to other genuine refugees who don't have the money to give to people smugglers to get on a boat, who's only chance is to go through the proper procedures.

A refugee from Afghanistan who was fleeing for their lives would go to the nearest safe haven, not pay to board a boat to risk their lives going to a country 20,000km's away

what proper procedures are you talking about? you mean the ones that the greens want to set up, those ones?
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Yea, which from what i understand is pakistan, which takes around 2 million refugees yearly, except... well, i dont really think pakistan is a particularly safe place either.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

they are taking a calculated risk. don't be so naive. of course they are rational people.......you make it sound like they are intellectually handicapped. They are prepared to pay money to take a calculated risk to specifically come to Australia.

So tell me buffed, why, out of all the countries on this wonderful planet, do you think exactly, they are taking a 'calculated risk' to get here?
Im really curious.

Im not making them sound intelligently handicapped, im pointing out that desperate people do desperate things, its only natural.
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

what proper procedures are you talking about? you mean the ones that the greens want to set up, those ones?

through the offshire resettlement procedures administered by the UNHCR
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Quote:

Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

So tell me buffed, why, out of all the countries on this wonderful planet, do you think exactly, they are taking a 'calculated risk' to get here?
Im really curious.

Im not making them sound intelligently handicapped, im pointing out that desperate people do desperate things, its only natural.

because it's a wonderful country full of opportunity with low unemployment and very generous welfare payments
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Which we have established they do not recieve, try again.

Im still reeling, I find it almost unfathomable that people think those kind of factors really matter when you are running for you life, when you live in a war zone, when you have watched your family get blown to pieces, everything you ever owned destroyed and your children having no future, except perhaps certain death.

pretty sure welfare would be the last thing on someones mind, and as i noted a while ago, some of the top pull factors are family/human rights/civil rights/protection.

Last edited by smorchika: 29-Jun-12 at 11:15am

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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

through the offshire resettlement procedures administered by the UNHCR

I posted it on the previous page, but maybe you missed it...


No one is talking about the UNHCR having such a small number of officers processing asylum claims in Indonesia. It is impossible for this tiny cohort to process any reasonable number of applications. According to the International Organisation for Migration, from January 1 to May 31 this year, 24 refugees were resettled from Indonesia to Australia. That’s from a pool of 5732 asylum seekers and refugees.
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Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

Which we have established they do not recieve, try again.

refugees resettled in Australia don't receive any welfare payments? according to you they are not entitled to the same welfare benefits that the rest of the population receives? You really have no idea of what you're talking about do you?
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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

refugees resettled in Australia don't receive any welfare payments? according to you they are not entitled to the same welfare benefits that the rest of the population receives? You really have no idea of what you're talking about do you?

I was under the impression that initially they cannot get access to welfare?

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Asylum seekers in immigration detention centres receive a small allowance but do not receive Centrelink equivalent payments.43

However refugees -

Quote:

Refugees have the same entitlements as all other permanent residents—they do not receive special refugee payments or special rates of payment.
Given the circumstances in which refugees come to settle in Australia, they are exempt from the standard waiting period that applies to migrants seeking to access social security payments or concession cards. They also receive short-term assistance from DIAC aimed at helping them settle effectively.

Taken from: http://wopared.parl.net/Library/pubs...sylumFacts.pdf
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refugees and asylum seekers don't come here to remain as asylum seekers and refugees. they come here on the expectation that they will be successful in having their claims approved and they will then be entitled to the same benefits as the rest of the population. I have no problem with people wanting to come here, be it refugees or economic migrants, but there is a process and for every 'claimed refugee' who pays a people smuggler to come here by boat, it means that another potentially more deserving refugee without money is stuck trying to go through the UNHCR process. and do we want to keep filling the pockets of people smugglers and having shitty boats trying to make the crossing?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston View Post

I'm still yet to meet an asylum seeker, neither boat person nor plane person

except for the Vietnamese, I'm talking recent arrival

nah, more likely to meet a highly skilled 457 visa, driving a taxi and talking about the cricket and the weather in Chennai

Hindu is the fastest growing religion after all, and they all just walk off planes.

Boat people are 5 to 10% of the amount coming in on 457s to drive our taxis and clean our offices
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@trist: Do you think the re-introduction of the Pacific Solution in its entirety would still work? And by work, I mean reduce the boats to the level after it was introduced previously. Because even the architect of it says that he doubts it would still be effective by it-self.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

through the offshire resettlement procedures administered by the UNHCR

that the greens tryed to get increased funding to give people options other then boats, but because the greens suggested it, you trist and the other dickheads supporting abbott said it was shit or for hippies or some other rubbish
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

@trist: Do you think the re-introduction of the Pacific Solution in its entirety would still work? And by work, I mean reduce the boats to the level after it was introduced previously. Because even the architect of it says that he doubts it would still be effective by it-self.

Well, one of the factors that assisted it working so well was the Navy intercepting boats and trying to turn them back to Indonesia. That isn’t possible anymore because Indonesia wont have it. So it probably wont work to the same degree, but I think off-shore processing in 3rd countries is vital, as is having Christmas Island and other islands outside the migration zone. I also think the refugee assessment process is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.

What Howard’s Pacific Solution and all his other rhetoric and actions did was create a perception to the world of fortress Australia that was a very strong deterrent to illegal boat arrivals. This perception was reversed by Rudd in 2007.
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Last edited by trist: 29-Jun-12 at 02:23pm

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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

that the greens tryed to get increased funding to give people options other then boats, but because the greens suggested it, you trist and the other dickheads supporting abbott said it was shit or for hippies or some other rubbish

Pfft. I don’t support Abbott at all, I support logic and evidence. The Greens policy has neither.
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

that the greens tryed to get increased funding to give people options other then boats, but because the greens suggested it, you trist and the other dickheads supporting abbott said it was shit or for hippies or some other rubbish

how about collecting money from the refugees that would otherwise go to the people smugglers and contribute to their own processing instead?
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

Pfft. I don’t support Abbott at all, I support logic and evidence. The Greens policy has neither.

you say you dont, yet you seem to support his policies, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....
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at the end of the day... and this is a personal view directed at no one in particular

- Even if arrivals doubled from current levels, that would be 4/5ths of fuck all, in the great scheme of things

- These are human beings putting themselves in extreme danger to get away from whatever situation they may have been embroiled in; granted they'll be charlatans sneaking in, but there are countless thousands of Brits and Irish here long after their return dates, so who gives a fuck?

- These are people, not statistics or political footballs. Not wanting to get all Sarah H. Young on you, but really, where is the compassion and empathy?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

how about collecting money from the refugees that would otherwise go to the people smugglers and contribute to their own processing instead?

good suggestion
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

Well, one of the factors that assisted it working so well was the Navy intercepting boats and trying to turn them back to Indonesia. That isn’t possible anymore because Indonesia wont have it. So it probably wont work to the same degree, but I think off-shore processing in 3rd countries is vital, as is having Christmas Island and other islands outside the migration zone. I also think the refugee assessment process is fundamentally flawed and needs fixing.

What Howard’s Pacific Solution and all his other rhetoric and actions did was create a perception to the world of fortress Australia that was a very strong deterrent to illegal boat arrivals. This perception was reversed by Rudd in 2007.

I had problems with the way Howard spoke about the issue. Internally he made it an extremely divisive issue. I think Rudd had good intentions but it clearly hasn't worked. I now agree that there needs to be a deterrent component and that can only come from there being off-shore processing, and as distasteful as I find the option, coming to an agreement with Indonesia and Malaysia about receiving boat-bound asylum seekers in exchange for refugees already processed in those countries.

I think some of the Greens suggestions should also be implemented, particularly trying to create some procedural order in Indonesia.

Turning back the boats is a faintly ridiculous and unworkable solution.

The coarse rhetoric by our politicians has to change as well. It's unedifying and damaging and leads to an unwillingness to co-operate.

I have no probs with refugees or boat bound asylum seekers. I hate the demonisation that is directed their way by sections of the Australian community but we just can't keep watching our fellow humans die.

The processing of applications takes far too long. People shouldn't be detained indefinitely for years. That is some kind of crazy Kafkaesque hell. There has to be a way to presume legitimacy on the claimants behalf if the processing is taking longer than a year. It doesn't help if people are arriving with little or no documentation of course.

As I said before, I think all solutions are going to have some kind of deleterious side-effects or consequences, but the goal has to be about minimising them as much as possible.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

you say you dont, yet you seem to support his policies, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

The only policy of Abbott’s I entirely support is his paid paternity leave policy. The rest range from partial support to outright opposition.
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Originally Posted by weekender View Post

at the end of the day... and this is a personal view directed at no one in particular

- Even if arrivals doubled from current levels, that would be 4/5ths of fuck all, in the great scheme of things

- These are human beings putting themselves in extreme danger to get away from whatever situation they may have been embroiled in; granted they'll be charlatans sneaking in, but there are countless thousands of Brits and Irish here long after their return dates, so who gives a fuck?

- These are people, not statistics or political footballs. Not wanting to get all Sarah H. Young on you, but really, where is the compassion and empathy?

that's all well and good, but how does any of that stop the boats? i don't know why people are so dense. are we going to form a permanent naval blockade around every indonesian island and wait for boats to embark on the trip, pick them up and fly them over to Australia?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by weekender View Post

at the end of the day... and this is a personal view directed at no one in particular

- Even if arrivals doubled from current levels, that would be 4/5ths of fuck all, in the great scheme of things

- These are human beings putting themselves in extreme danger to get away from whatever situation they may have been embroiled in; granted they'll be charlatans sneaking in, but there are countless thousands of Brits and Irish here long after their return dates, so who gives a fuck?

- These are people, not statistics or political footballs. Not wanting to get all Sarah H. Young on you, but really, where is the compassion and empathy?

Is it compassionate to continue to watch them die though? Not trying to be personally insulting by the way.
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

good suggestion

the irony is that if Gina Rinehardt or clive palmer were behind the people smuggling enterprise, you would argue for the pacific solution to be implemented to kill their business.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

the irony is that if Gina Rinehardt or clive palmer were behind the people smuggling enterprise, you would argue for the pacific solution to be implemented to kill their business.

what are you on about? wouldnt matter who was behind it i would want it stopped
the irony is if they were behind it, you would be arguing that they should be allowed to continue doing it as its their right blah blah blah
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

that's all well and good, but how does any of that stop the boats? i don't know why people are so dense. are we going to form a permanent naval blockade around every indonesian island and wait for boats to embark on the trip, pick them up and fly them over to Australia?

My comment was prompted by senior politicans of both persuasions and internet warriors dressing up an apolitical issue as one of party ideology. If any of the people that can shape policy had the safety of the asylum seekers/ boat people as their number one priority, the current impasse wouldn't exist.
I dont know the fucking answer, but their are cnuts in Canberra and beyond who should know the answer and start putting it in place.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

the irony is that if Gina Rinehardt or clive palmer were behind the people smuggling enterprise, you would argue for the pacific solution to be implemented to kill their business.

why do you think he's building a replica of the Titanic?
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

what are you on about? wouldnt matter who was behind it i would want it stopped
the irony is if they were behind it, you would be arguing that they should be allowed to continue doing it as its their right blah blah blah

so far you have come up with nothing to stop the boats. for all your bleeding heart diatribe, you offer nothing to stop the potential for more of this happening
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What's so bad about Indonesia...we* all go there for holidays eh?

*bogans
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

so far you have come up with nothing to stop the boats. for all your bleeding heart diatribe, you offer nothing to stop the potential for more of this happening

yeah ignore the 20 posts on funding the un, lets go with all your suggestions
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

yeah ignore the 20 posts on funding the un, lets go with all your suggestions

wtf does funding the UN have to do with stopping boats from leaving indonesia?
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you fund the UN so that they can apply there as opposed to getting on a boat
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

you fund the UN so that they can apply there as opposed to getting on a boat

with community processing in Australia also as the Greens policy? I think they will take their chances on a boat rather than mandatory detention in Indo.
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nothing will ever stoo them all, but it will deter some, and its much cheaper then offshore processing
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

you fund the UN so that they can apply there as opposed to getting on a boat

they can apply there now. fact is, there will never be enough numbers allocated for the amount of people wanting to come to Australia, so you will get those taking their chances by paying to go on dodgy boats and jump the qeue.
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it will barely cause a ripple.
if you want to offer a carrot (better indonesia processing) to deter people taking boats you dont offer them an even bigger one (community processing in aus) at the same time.

if indonesia is your carrot, what is your stick?
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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

nothing will ever stoo them all, but it will deter some, and its much cheaper then offshore processing

first you want more money, now you're concerned about the cost. you're all over the place. just admit that offshore processing is a deterrant irrespective of the fact that it was associated with john howard..........you can do it, i know you can. just admit it and then have a shower afterwards if you feel dirty
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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

first you want more money, now you're concerned about the cost. you're all over the place. just admit that offshore processing is a deterrant irrespective of the fact that it was associated with john howard..........you can do it, i know you can. just admit it and then have a shower afterwards if you feel dirty

im not concerned about the cost at all, im concerned about the deaths
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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

first you want more money, now you're concerned about the cost. you're all over the place. just admit that offshore processing is a deterrant irrespective of the fact that it was associated with john howard..........you can do it, i know you can. just admit it and then have a shower afterwards if you feel dirty

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Originally Posted by jdoodle View Post

im not concerned about the cost at all, im concerned about the deaths

then you agree with the pacific solution. to stop deaths you need to stop boats. its better having people waiting in their own country and applying for asylum than having hundreds of people doing breastroke in the indian ocean.
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The pacific solution was so good it even worked in Europe!

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Originally Posted by gotamangina View Post

I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

jdoodle +

in on the killtaker

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but push factors dont count eddie, just ask trist
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill
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If it is prophylactic and emphatically didactic, then it's not tactic."

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Stop it Eddie!

Everyone knows reality has a Left Wing bias. This discussion won't have any balance unless we allow for equal time for Right Wing fantasy.
Broadband speeds will always be lower under a Coalition Government.
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3o~

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The govt should have arranged the people swap deal with Texas instead of Malaysia. Australia could swap 5 of their illegal immigrants for every one of our boat arrivals.

Because if there's 5 things Australia needs more of and 1 thing Australia could do with less of and thats taco's, burrito's, quesadilla's, tequila, real football players and muslims. respectively.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

The govt should have arranged the people swap deal with Texas instead of Malaysia. Australia could swap 5 of their illegal immigrants for every one of our boat arrivals.

Because if there's 5 things Australia needs more of and 1 thing Australia could do with less of and thats taco's, burrito's, quesadilla's, tequila, real football players and muslims. respectively.

Australia could do more with less of you.
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When are we going to start calling these que jumpers by their real name "ILLEGAL IMAGRENTS" ???????
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The graph says it all. The Pacific solution has soken
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