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The Unions can't win. If it goes to arbitration, the unions will lose. If the government orders Fair Work Australia to end the strike, the unions will lose. Alan Joyce is in the box seat if he continues the lock out. It is a careful strategic move by him
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We are so fucked if this is still going on in December (I'd certainly hope it's resolved by then). My boyfriend booked his flight with points and those points aren't going to be very useful for a $3500 flight with Virgin.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellyboop View Post

We are so fucked if this is still going on in December (I'd certainly hope it's resolved by then).

I would expect this to be resolved this week. It can't go on as it is bad for everyone involved. One way or another, the lockout will end and the strikes will end.
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Did anyone hear what Tony Abbott was saying??? He was saying "Quantas is an essential service and it is the Prime Ministers responsibility to deal with the crisis" then some dribble about brand australia. Total knob head that guy.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

It is a careful strategic move by him

so what would be "blunt and bombastic".... taking to his staff with an AK47?

Whisp, I have it on good authority that China Airlines now pay more for senior pilots due to the stupid demand for pilots and pilot trainers. I'm sure airlines with huge growth or significant deterrents (like being based in the UAE or Beijing) would be similar. This and the internal problems are making some if not a fair proportion Qantas pilots consider their options to run for a few years, make some solid cash for a few years.

they might be on par with the highest paid, but I'm inclined to think that "by a fair margin" is horse shit spat out by The Australian or another Murdoch media master piece.
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China is in a far better position to earn more and therefore pay more. It wouldn't surprise me. People forget that Australia has never been, is not and will never be a flight hub. It is the end of the line like New Zealand and therefore can't be compared to Asia, Europe and North America.
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Yet the Sydney - Melbourne link is the 3rd busiest in the world
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International. Domestic is a different kettle of fish, plus how much profit are they making on that route anyway?
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their profit is in business/first class, the rest of the seats are just ballast
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That wasn't rhetorical, I genuinely want someone to post their figures so I can have a look because I'm too lazy to trawl the net at the moment for them
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Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

Did anyone hear what Tony Abbott was saying??? He was saying "Quantas is an essential service and it is the Prime Ministers responsibility to deal with the crisis" then some dribble about brand australia. Total knob head that guy.

He does he a point.

Ignoring some of the things raised in this article
http://www.smh.com.au/business/natio...014-1lo1o.html

But it compares QANTAS to the 3 major international competitors (Air NZ, Emeriates and Singapore Airlines) who are all owned by their governments. Very surprising some of the figures mentioned

Quote:

Over the most recent financial year, Qantas earned around $10 per passenger; Singapore Airlines $60; Emirates $47; and Air New Zealand $39.
The economies of Dubai, Singapore and Auckland, however, stand to gain around $200 per day for each Aussie tourist that they bring into the country. And if those Aussies stay on average 19 nights they stand to gain around $4000 per tourist.
Government-owned airlines see a potential return of around $4050 when contemplating increasing the seats they fly while Qantas sees just $10.

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Heard something like qantas as a whole making 500m profit despite qantas international running at a 200m loss last year..

That's going by memory because I can't be assed trawling for figures either.

I know its pretty indicative of the way the domestic/international market is at the moment
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Qantas International made a loss because of the way that Joyce diverts funds and reports to shore up his Aussie Aer Lingus fetish - Jetstar. Jetstar's overseas maintenance and catering costs, for example, come out of Qantas International budget .
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vote Quimby View Post

I would expect this to be resolved this week. It can't go on as it is bad for everyone involved. One way or another, the lockout will end and the strikes will end.

The lock-out won't go ahead - the Full Bench of Fair Work Australia which is hearing the matter said last night that are satisfied that the lock-out will cause significant damage to the economy or part of it, which means that under section 424 of the Fair Work Act:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...9114/s424.html

FWA must suspend or terminate the action. All that now remains in issue is whether to suspend or terminate, and whether, if there is a suspension of the lock-out, the unions' right to take protected industrial action should also be suspended.

It's pretty funny to see all the Tories jumping in and saying "the Government should have intervened earlier" - back when the Tories valued intellectual consistency (ie before the elected Tony Abbott) they were for less Government intervention in agreement-making between employers and employees, not more.

It's also pretty funny to see Peter Reith saying "this is all the fault of the Fair Work Act". This is a pretty close approximation of the dispute at the Hunter Valley Number 1 mine in 1999 under Reith-era laws - it's not about the laws, it's about the fact that QANTAS can't negotiate to save itself. If the damage to QANTAS was really as serious as Joyce now claims, QANTAS could have sought to suspend or terminate protected industrial action under s 423.
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My God Tony Abbott is a knob. Every time he opens his mouth it's to dig at the government, while never offering solutions to the problem. Not everyone is blessed with wings for ears so they can fly without airlines.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4 View Post

their profit is in business/first class, the rest of the seats are just ballast

not really.

there is normally 12 seats in business class on a 737 QANTAS config. normally business is what, $600 between melbourne and sydney, cattle $100?

that means that QANTAS make $6k profit on each sydney-melbourne flight.

doesn't seem like a very good business model to me. Granted they make more profit from domestic business, but I'm willing to bet that half the business class passengers are high earning frequent flyers who get bumped up.
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1 or 2 will be passengers travelling on staff tickets, 2 or 3 will be upgraded on points.

Except during red eye, where it is probably 100% full fare
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

Except during red eye, where it is probably 100% full fare

Are redeye flights really that popular?
I hate them
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For business they would be. You're going to be sleeping anyway during that time, so might as well get a full day of work in and then fly overnight for a full day of work the next day. Not ideal, but plenty of executives work on that type of timeframe.

More so for international. For SYD-MEL, it's a short flight so I would rather fly off-peak.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellyboop View Post

My God Tony Abbott is a knob. Every time he opens his mouth it's to dig at the government, while never offering solutions to the problem. Not everyone is blessed with wings for ears so they can fly without airlines.

He is an absolutely pathetic politician/human-being. So so so predictable. I'd say his opinion would be irrelevant.... but he doesn't really have an opinion of his own (or any solutions to anything like you've said) because he's too busy letting the opposition dictate his every move.

The thought of him as PM is frightening.

Qantas have shot themselves in the foot bigtime imo. The business side of things and the reasoning is irrelevant to many simple minded Australians... all they see is a homosexual multi-millionaire foreigner making the lives of a lot of Australian's pretty difficult. It can't end well.

If they somehow come out of it, props to them and Joyce for having the balls to make a very tough decision. Doubt it though.
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The key is in what L-A posted, I think this is a very calculated move to force Fair Work Australia into suspending the unions right to strike.


Also, I didn't know he was gay, but it is really irrelevant in this instance.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst View Post

Also, I didn't know he was gay, but it is really irrelevant in this instance.

100%..... but try telling that to the 3 million+ simple minded bogans following the news

There have already been a fair few comments mentioning his nationality and sexuality on blogs, news sites, facebook etc
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looks to me like they are trying to strong arm a weak government into action.
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They didn't need to ground the fleet in order to get the government involved.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fruitbat View Post

They didn't need to ground the fleet in order to get the government involved.

More to the point they didn't need to ground the domestic fleet when the major dispute centres around the international fleet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B_e_de View Post

It's the same as going out on a busy street and looking at the people around you, most of them are fgts.

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I didn't know he was 'flying the pink kangaroo' either but people seem to have enough of a problem with him being Irish

God help him if he was from Pakistan or a woman or someshit
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Abziie View Post

looks to me like they are trying to strong arm a weak government into action.

The Government only gets involved when (a) the parties can't sort it out amongst themselves and (b) their failure to do so causes damage to more parties than just the employer and employees in the particular dispute.

I appreciate that trying to explain these things to you is a bit like trying to explain them to a dining table, but you can't say I don't try.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

The Government only gets involved when (a) the parties can't sort it out amongst themselves and (b) their failure to do so causes damage to more parties than just the employer and employees in the particular dispute.

What do you think qantas shutting down their operation does?

Quote:

I appreciate that trying to explain these things to you is a bit like trying to explain them to a dining table, but you can't say I don't try.

Whats with the personal attack?
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lol....
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Question:

how many of the people complaining about our "aussie icon" Qantas being damaged actually choose to fly Qantas for international (or domestic) flights? It seems to me like a lot of people are more than happy to stick the boot in but when it comes down to it they would probably choose one of Qantas' major competitors (Singapore, Emirates etc) due to the cheaper price. You can't have it both ways.

I think that if you consider the market environment and conditions, Qantas' plans to expand into Asia make perfect sense. It is the largest market for international flights and that is where the money will be made in the future. The international airline industry is extremely competitive with very low profit margins. Qantas has labour costs 25% higher than its competitors so it is a simple case of "adapt or die" in the long-term for the airline.

The other thing i find interesting is that their are numerous large iconic Australian companies that have set up international subsidiaries without the same sort of patriotic nonsense emanating from commentators, politicians and the general public. People don't have a whinge when BHP opens a mine in PNG or News Corp runs the Fiji Times. Surely it makes sense that an international operation has local staff and they get paid market rates for that country or region. Once again, i repeat, people can't have it both ways. Yes, in an ideal world we would all be paid truckloads and everyone could enjoy "The Australian Way", but thats not how it works. We live in a globalised world with competition internationally and strong price pressures. Qantas is a public company in a capatalist market, not a government-owned flagship national airline. If they want to make decisions to secure the long-term future of the company, that is their perogative.

Yes, it would be great if we could keep all the jobs in Australia forever and give people 3% pay increases every year, but when competing internationally in a cut-throat market with a huge cost disadvantage, this really isn't feasible in the long term. History is littered with airlines that have failed because they have failed to adapt or improve.

At the end of the day, i think Qantas' strategy is sound and their plans to secure the future of the airline are good, but their public relations stinks. This has been a public relations disaster for Qantas and it has done untold damage to the company's image and reputation.
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As an aside, my dad knows Alan Joyce very well and thinks this was a very calculated move. He knows what he is doing. He probably knows that his head will be on the chopping block for this, but he will take his multi-million-dollar payout and move on. I think he will become the scapegoat for everything that has happened and somebody else will step in to pick up the pieces. That's the way things go i guess.

(My dad worked at Qantas for 30 years and was in quite a senior position before he retired recently).
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Punk in Drublic View Post

Question:

how many of the people complaining about our "aussie icon" Qantas being damaged actually choose to fly Qantas for international (or domestic) flights? It seems to me like a lot of people are more than happy to stick the boot in but when it comes down to it they would probably choose one of Qantas' major competitors (Singapore, Emirates etc) due to the cheaper price. You can't have it both ways.

their prices for domestic (as I mentioned before) are on par or generally cheaper than Virgin, so unless there's a significant difference I always fly QANTAS domestically... and that is *supposedly* their main profit stream, so the argument that it's Australian wages that is costing the company their profits and growth potential in my opinion, travelling regularly on the east coast and to Adelaide is rubbish, if they can compete with the budget airlines in Australia who offer less service then I struggle to believe that they can't instigate significant cost savings in other areas of the business to make international destinations more profitable for them.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Punk in Drublic View Post

As an aside, my dad knows Alan Joyce very well and thinks this was a very calculated move. He knows what he is doing. He probably knows that his head will be on the chopping block for this, but he will take his multi-million-dollar payout and move on. I think he will become the scapegoat for everything that has happened and somebody else will step in to pick up the pieces. That's the way things go i guess.

(My dad worked at Qantas for 30 years and was in quite a senior position before he retired recently).

as someone who is quite into shares etc if i saw this idiot anywhere near a company I held stock in I would sell on the spot, he is destroying shareholder value and trashing about the only point of difference with qantas, its name. That said qantas have been a terrible performing stock since about day 1
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthykins View Post

watching the news on 9 about this and Dick Smith just went on a bit of a rant about how this is all the public's fault because we want cheap flights even though our nations airline is going broke and that the politicians should have done something. I'm pretty sure that Joyce's decision to pay himself an extra 70% didn't help their budget. You Irish prick - go eat another potato!


Racism. Nice.

Joyce took a 30% pay cut to join qantas, then another 20% last year. He managed to create $250m profit in a year where every other airline made a loss. He has the full support of the board.

Qantas is a global business and has every right to outsource work oversees. Every Australia company does this. Virgin does it but just cause Australians feel like they own the brand they aren't allowed to do it?

Ps. You're a racist bitch
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Cromwell should have wiped the lot of them out.
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There'd be no Australia then
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The unions think disrupting so many passengers is negligent on Qantas' behalf, but their previous actions have also affected passengers (irrespective of the numbers) and only recently they've clearly stated they will step up industrial action which will see an increase in cancelled flights and safety concerns. Let's not also forget that FAR more passengers are booked to fly with Qantas over the coming months than the number of those stranded at the moment, so certainty and resolution are just as important for those people too.

More importantly, with an increasing amount of Australian's deciding to book their flights with cheaper competitors, particularly in Asia, the short-sightedness of anti-Qantas sentiments is alarming in the context of long term sustainability, if not cause for a psychiatric examination.
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being a ceo means you need to be able to negotiate, this is reckless not negotiation
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Being a CEO means you also have to make tough decisions. They feel this is the best for their company, so be it. They wouldn't have got anywhere with the current unions.
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really? weird they operated this long with them then....
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I'm amazed too, considering how rubbish and largely irrelevant unions are these days.
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irrelevant not to their members if you work in the travel industry though it seems
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vote Quimby View Post

Bravo to Joyce and the Board (yes, the board of directors approved this move) for doing this. It's a big fuck you to the unions who have been consistently fucking over Qantas the last month or so.

You can not run a business when three unions consistently threaten strikes, then turn around and cancel them at the last minute thinking everything will be ok. It doesn't work that way.

And for those posters, Joyce did not give himself a raise. The board did. However, Joyce did make a strategic mistake by not deferring it. That said, this dispute needs to be settled once and for all. And this is where a Federal Government worth anything, orders everyone back to work and back to the table. Unfortunately, Gillard is too much of a union pussy to do anything like that. She's a union lackey.

Sucks to be anyone who blindly flies with Qantas and ends up being stuck somewhere. But this will work out to the airline passengers benefit in the long run. Face it, Qantas charges a premium for flying with them. Mostly to do with their high labour costs.

And worth repeating is that Qantas pilots are the best paid in the world, by a fair margin. And they are one of the groups striking. Really? You get paid better than anyone, yet deserve more money? There is only so much money to go around. Maybe the other unions might want to focus on the pilots union for taking all of their money. Maybe if Qantas paid them fair market rate, instead of the inflated premiums they charge, everyone else might get a bit more of the kitty.

Totally agree. Once again the Unions have shown themselves to be totally out of touch with reality, Qantas were negotiating but the Unions were just demanding more and more. It's not a negotiation if you're not willing to meet someone half way.

Joyce is forcing the issue, and good luck to him.
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the union hasn't changed their demands, so how do you come up with "more and more" and lets be frank here, who actually got a pay rise of less than 5% this financial year?
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Poor leadership by Gillard and Albanese taking sides with the unions..........the government is a rabble. It's not surprising that a government with 7 former senior unionists in ministerial positions would take such a stand, but they have picked the wrong horse again
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joyce was involved with ansett as well wasnt he?
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He was involved in flight scheduling and network planning. Not fair to say he killed off Ansett as he was nothing to do with the board
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who said he killed off ansett?
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I read implicational tones in your post.
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The employees have every right to be worried about their jobs and the unions have every right to drive a hard bargain.

What Alan Joyce has done is equivalent to the whole workforce walking off the job "indefinitely" to bring the whole airline to its knees and make outrages demands. The unions haven't taken the irrational route. Qantas under Alan Joyce have.
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