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Originally Posted by TrainsPillsBreaks View Post

Wrong. People in free societies have greater responsibility than the oppressed including how their nation state conducts itself on the world stage - the basic principle of representative democracy which we supposedly operate under.

No they don't. And since when has that been the basic principle of representative democracy?

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Pointing it out forms an integral part of most recent history and current events discussions - so this closing phrase is stupid and it also isn't what happened. You used the idiotic phrase anti-American and your argument is that it exists so why talk about it? Yeah cool story special needs bro.

You're a happy person aren't you?

Who said you can't talk about it? There is a difference between talking about it and delusional ranting, though.
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Originally Posted by TrainsPillsBreaks View Post

Hi buffed I see you are busy being the best at being the stupidest person on this board or the greatest troll, yet again.

The crime is occupying another people's land in violation of all international law and countless legal resolutions.

Possession is nine tenths, my friend.
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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Pretty desperate strawman.


People blame America for what America does.

Well you're even blaming them for things they haven't even done, like covert wars organised by former CIA employees, which are hardly direct action in the same sense as govt employees causing famine. If you're going to bring up covert wars, look up the British involvement in the Taiping rebellion, which resulted in at least 20 million dead.

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And the Khmer Rouge didn't kill as many as the nazis so I guess we should have given them a pass.

if 6 million+ is 'benign' I'd say you've dealt yourself out of any argument about the ethics of it all. Obviously you and buffed have some kind of emotional attachment to America which precludes both of you from being able to criticize it.

'Relatively benign'. There has always been a powerful global entity that has abused that power and always will be. Do you actually think that if the American empire went away world affairs would improve? If you do, that is a naive and ignorant delusion.

You're the one so ignorant to say the Brits weren't as bad when they demonstrably starved millions of Indians (let alone what they did to China, Ireland, etc in the 19th century). Like I've said all along, this conflict seems to bring out the best of those who indulge paranoid fantasies of just how evil America is. Get some perspective.
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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

I think if you read the thread before joining in you'd notice that it was actually somebody else who brought America into it. You're a bit hapless.


I could post links, answer your questions, point out how ill informed your views are but what would be the point?


Can't reason with an ideologue.

The U.S had little if anything to do with the formation of Israel and no involvement in the arab israeli conflict of 1948. This war has nothing to do with the U.S, it never has.........the U.S like everyone else will take sides, but blaming the U.S for the conflict is a bit like blaming a weatherman for the rain
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Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

Well you're even blaming them for things they haven't even done, like covert wars organised by former CIA employees

what are you talking about?

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'Relatively benign'. There has always been a powerful global entity that has abused that power and always will be. Do you actually think that if the American empire went away world affairs would improve? If you do, that is a naive and ignorant delusion.

You're the one so ignorant to say the Brits weren't as bad when they demonstrably starved millions of Indians (let alone what they did to China, Ireland, etc in the 19th century). Like I've said all along, this conflict seems to bring out the best of those who indulge paranoid fantasies of just how evil America is. Get some perspective.

Yes, I think the world would have been better off without the Iraq war than with it.


Me being wrong about the British empire doesn't change the fact that you complaining about it not being fair for us to be opposed to America's attempt at world control because;

a) before America did it other countries were trying to do it too

b) you and your crystal ball say that if it wasn't America it would be somebody else


are arguments you'd expect to hear from a 5 year old
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Crystal ball or general observation of human history and the result of power vacuums?

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Originally Posted by gotamangina View Post

I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

The U.S had little if anything to do with the formation of Israel and no involvement in the arab israeli conflict of 1948. This war has nothing to do with the U.S, it never has.........the U.S like everyone else will take sides, but blaming the U.S for the conflict is a bit like blaming a weatherman for the rain


So are you going to point to the post I made showing how it was me who bought America into this?


Honestly buffed, it's like talking to some barfly at the RSL. You invent things, make posts full of factually incorrect claims and then when it's pointed out to that you're talking rubbish you just persist with the same arguments.


And your claims there about America and the I-P conflict are all wrong.



Quote:

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

Quote:

Year Resolution Vetoed by the United States

1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

1976 Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.

1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries.

1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with the apartheid South Africa.

1980 Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.

1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa. 4 resolutions.

1986 Imposes economic and military sanctions against South Africa.

1987 Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.

1997 Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.

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Have any of you guys read this yet?

It's eerily accurate and really helps to explain a lot of the conflicts around the world, and on a deep yet simple level.

Highly recommend!

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/pnorri...gton_Clash.pdf
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

So are you going to point to the post I made showing how it was me who bought America into this?


Honestly buffed, it's like talking to some barfly at the RSL. You invent things, make posts full of factually incorrect claims and then when it's pointed out to that you're talking rubbish you just persist with the same arguments.


And your claims there about America and the I-P conflict are all wrong.

i'm still waiting for you to tell me what direct involvement the U.S had in the creation of the state of Israel or indeed, in any of the three arab-israeli wars.

provide proof of direct involvement or stfu with your anti-U.S crusade on every thread. It gets realy fucking tiresome
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Quote:

Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Yes, I think the world would have been better off without the Iraq war than with it.

Are the Iraqi people better off without Saddam? Is the world a better place without him? Serious questions.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Are the Iraqi people better off without Saddam? Is the world a better place without him? Serious questions.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2012/11/29/i...ave-done-here/

Quote:

Someone asked, “Why did you this? What did we do to you that you would do this to us?”

“Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here,” said another. “They destroyed the childhood. You don’t destroy everything and then say ‘We’re sorry.’ “You don’t commit crimes and then say ‘Sorry.’”

“To bomb us and then send teams to do investigations on the effects of the bombs…No, it will not be forgotten. It is not written on our hearts, it is carved in our hearts.”

We are happy to make bridges between people, said the president of the college, but we will not forget. What can you do? In Fallujah 30% of the babies are born deformed.” What can you do?

Yak, yak, yak. Get a job
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

i'm still waiting for you to tell me what direct involvement the U.S had in the creation of the state of Israel or indeed, in any of the three arab-israeli wars.provide proof of direct involvement or stfu with your anti-U.S crusade on every thread. It gets realy fucking tiresome


Couldn't find the post where I allegedly 'drew the Americans into this' or where I 'continually made reference to the U.S in the arab-israeli conflict' then? What a surprise


As for evidence that the US helped create Israel look at the image I posted again, doofus. Israel received recognition from the US even though it's creation was completely illegitimate. Go read some history.


lol@ dropping another strawman re: the three arab-israeli wars when you realize you're on thin ice and double lol@ getting menstrual when people refuse to suck American cock like you do

Last edited by robin78: 03-Dec-12 at 07:06pm

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Originally Posted by big eddie View Post

Crystal ball or general observation of human history and the result of power vacuums?


Either one is a guess about the future.
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Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Are the Iraqi people better off without Saddam? Is the world a better place without him? Serious questions.


Obviously the 100,000+ dead aren't.



What is so great about Iraq today compared to when Saddam was in power? What's been gained?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie View Post

Crystal ball or general observation of human history and the result of power vacuums?

Quote:

Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Either one is a guess about the future.

No. There is a difference between a guess and an educated guess. Most of us try to learn from history to better the future.


Quote:

Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Obviously the 100,000+ dead aren't.

What is so great about Iraq today compared to when Saddam was in power? What's been gained?

Just curious, do you think anything should be done about North Korea? Or are you happy with them arming themselves to the teeth at the expense of their people, while anyone who opposes the regime is sent to a concentration camp to work themselves to death.
Camp 22 Is just one of many.
I doubt you know much about this although I'm sure you will claim to. You'll know all about it when you see it on CNN one day as America and South Korea invade, at which point you'll have plenty to say about how many civilians are being killed by the Americans and how much better things were before they intervened.

I put people like you in the same basket as the rest of the fools who said the Nazi Party and Hitler wasn't a threat.
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Fuck me dead - I heard that the Middle East was still troubled and I thought "how can that be? They've got up to the 7th page on the ITM forums - surely they've solved that shit by now?"

Apparently not - ITM you disappoint.
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http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...=1354539874513

Interesting article from Hartcher. I generally agree with Bob Carr's position.
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I thought you were going to post a link to the stupid piece from your mate henderson
It is a good piece from Hartcher I agree
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Coezi View Post

Just curious, do you think anything should be done about North Korea? Or are you happy with them arming themselves to the teeth at the expense of their people, while anyone who opposes the regime is sent to a concentration camp to work themselves to death.
Camp 22 Is just one of many.
I doubt you know much about this although I'm sure you will claim to. You'll know all about it when you see it on CNN one day as America and South Korea invade, at which point you'll have plenty to say about how many civilians are being killed by the Americans and how much better things were before they intervened.

I put people like you in the same basket as the rest of the fools who said the Nazi Party and Hitler wasn't a threat.

Far out, after reading that wiki page I went on to read reference 58, a former guard explaining everything. That is truly horrible, I didn't think many things like that existed these days...

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Coezi View Post

Just curious, do you think anything should be done about North Korea? Or are you happy with them arming themselves to the teeth at the expense of their people, while anyone who opposes the regime is sent to a concentration camp to work themselves to death.
Camp 22 Is just one of many.
I doubt you know much about this although I'm sure you will claim to. You'll know all about it when you see it on CNN one day as America and South Korea invade, at which point you'll have plenty to say about how many civilians are being killed by the Americans and how much better things were before they intervened.

I put people like you in the same basket as the rest of the fools who said the Nazi Party and Hitler wasn't a threat.

The situation in North Korea is tragic. Most Australians know very little about it though, despite the country being partitioned in a war Australians fought in or that its a country wedged between two of our biggest trading partners.

No real end in sight and no real ethnic or religious divide between the people, just the wrong side of a 20th century ideological divide that seems entirely pointless now.

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Originally Posted by gotamangina View Post

I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...pansion-europe

Seriously Israel seem like they are trolling hardcore, but I guess it's just a response to the whole 'Palestine are waging war by having babbies' argument that Trist runs with

although there is the whole 'international law' thing
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looks like building a suburb on the side of Mt Lyell

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Originally Posted by gotamangina View Post

I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

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Originally Posted by CheelWinston View Post


Seriously Israel seem like they are trolling hardcore, but I guess it's just a response to the whole 'Palestine are waging war by having babbies' argument that Trist runs with

sounds like an odd argument to me.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Coezi View Post

Anything should be done about North Korea? Or are you happy with them arming themselves to the teeth at the expense of their people, while anyone who opposes the regime is sent to a concentration camp to work themselves to death.
Camp 22 Is just one of many.
I doubt you know much about this although I'm sure you will claim to. You'll know all about it when you see it on CNN one day as America and South Korea invade, at which point you'll have plenty to say about how many civilians are being killed by the Americans and how much better things were before they intervened.

I put people like you in the same basket as the rest of the fools who said the Nazi Party and Hitler wasn't a threat.

Ding ding! Non sequitur change of topic AND you set off the Godwin alarm! No wonder trist likes your post, student and practitioner of logical fallacies that he is.

Re the "whole international law thing", Julian Leeser's answer to the question, "What has Israel go to fear from Palestine signing up to the ICC?" was quite telling. Julian said something along the lines of, "International law has been no friend to Israel, which is a bit like saying, "the Rugby League judiciary has been no friend to players who keep making head-high tackles".
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sounds like an odd argument

I'm an odd person

no but have you not made mention of the Palestinian birth rate in this very thread?

I'm just pointing out that Israel's settlement expansion is seen as an 'attack' and an escalation of the situation but is also pretty benign in terms of body count
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Quote:

Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Obviously the 100,000+ dead aren't.



What is so great about Iraq today compared to when Saddam was in power? What's been gained?

Don't get me wrong, I am not oblivious to the parlous state of affairs that Iraq is still in, and the amount of Iraqi blood shed is not something I just dismiss as collateral damage either. I'm not so bolshie in my defence of the invasion, and removal of Saddam, that I can't see that the Bush Admin. totally mismanaged the whole thing and were probably culpable of criminal negligence due to having massively insignificant ground forces in place (under-investing in the Pentagon's advice for troop numbers by about a factor of 4:1 which had predictably dire consequences).

As I said before I don't defend the invasion/intervention uncritically. I don't pretend to know my position is right only that Saddam was known to have brutally murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people and there is no way of knowing whether he would have murdered more or not if he was still in power now but from what I've read it didn't seem like he needed much of an excuse to try and liquidate vast swathes of the population.

Perhaps they are worse off now. Perhaps not. It's for the people of Iraq to decide that not me or you or anyone else. If the majority of Iraqis in 20 years come out saying it was a very bad, and badly thought out, idea that continues to have dire repercussions I would accept that completely and shut my mouth.
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Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

Ding ding! Non sequitur change of topic AND you set off the Godwin alarm! No wonder trist likes your post, student and practitioner of logical fallacies that he is.

Firstly, I wasn't even involved in the discussion up until that post. Considering the person in question believes Iraq was better left in the hands of Sadaam I was genuinely interested to know what he believed should be done about North Korea. Changing the topic was not my intent.

Secondly, the godwin law states that someone will draw a comparison to Nazi Germany or Hitler eventually. I drew a comparison with North Korea. The mere mention of the words Nazi or Hitler does not mean Godwin's law has been proved, especially considering I drew no comparison to Nazi Germany or Hitler, I merely said I'd throw him in the basket with those who said they weren't a threat at the time.

Thirdly, I'll throw you in the basket with all the other wankers who have made a career of internet arguing, repeatedly throwing out their logical fallacy links and Godwin references while spamming article links and referring to their authors as if they were childhood friends.
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Last edited by Coezi: 04-Dec-12 at 12:33pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston View Post

I'm an odd person

no but have you not made mention of the Palestinian birth rate in this very thread?

I'm just pointing out that Israel's settlement expansion is seen as an 'attack' and an escalation of the situation but is also pretty benign in terms of body count

Yes I have, but in relation to arguing that the Israelis are not conducting genocide. Just a slight distinction from your “Palestine are waging war by having babbies” line don’t you think?
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Cmon Trist I've read you describing their birth rate as a 'weapon', not in this thread but in threads previous

but anyway I wasn't trying to verbal anyone, just pointing out the underhanded 'attacks' that are going on from both sides
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston View Post

Cmon Trist I've read you describing their birth rate as a 'weapon', not in this thread but in threads previous

really? I'm not so sure, but anyway carry on.....
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Yes.


History isn't necessarily a reliable guide to human nature. There are less wars, less intervention and less colonialism than ever before.

Quote:

Just curious, do you think anything should be done about North Korea? Or are you happy with them arming themselves to the teeth at the expense of their people, while anyone who opposes the regime is sent to a concentration camp to work themselves to death.
Camp 22 Is just one of many.
I doubt you know much about this although I'm sure you will claim to. You'll know all about it when you see it on CNN one day as America and South Korea invade, at which point you'll have plenty to say about how many civilians are being killed by the Americans and how much better things were before they intervened.

I put people like you in the same basket as the rest of the fools who said the Nazi Party and Hitler wasn't a threat.


Is this the best that Iraq war apologists can do these days? Cynically invoking starving north koreans in order to justify an attack on a completely different country which ended up creating millions of corpses and refugees? Nice work.

I can't think of anything more nauseating than listening to some pompous Iraq war proponent position him/herself as a glorious hero and defender of democracy and human rights amongst a sea of Chamberlains. Democracy didn't matter to these folk when it came to invade and the public's opinion (which was against them) was neither respected nor sort, human rights and liberty didn't seem such a pressing concern when it was pointed out international law was against them and Saddam's abu grahib torturers were replaced with American ones, then Iraqi ones from the 'new' Iraq.

Yeah, the proponents care more about the Iraqis than the critics of the war did. They show this best when they channel Stalin and casually dismiss hundreds of thousands of deaths as 'justified'.

Are you at all skeptical about the wisdom of invading other countries under those kind of circumstances when you consider the millions of refugees and mutated children that the Iraq war created and continues to create, Coezi? Or did you conveniently stop reading any news about that country once the mission accomplished banner was wheeled out?

I'm not sure what's worse- being incapable of recognizing a total clusterfuck when you see one or suggesting we should do it again to some other country.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

there is no way of knowing whether he would have murdered more or not if he was still in power now but from what I've read it didn't seem like he needed much of an excuse to try and liquidate vast swathes of the population.

I never really put much stock in the argument that the invasion was a preventative measure to stop a lunatic from going on another killing spree because the governments who were supposedly going to prevent this possibility from occurring again had themselves racked up a sizeable body count amongst Iraqi civilians, had occupied it before, controlled it for their own gains etc

Even if Saddam wanted to go apeshit again he obviously had no WMD to do it with and his military was crippled. Britain and the US on the other hand had the military and economic capability to inflict far more damage and had shown a similar level of contempt towards Iraqi civilian deaths. If you factor in the entire foreign policy of those countries then they come out with a worse human rights record than Saddam's so it boils down to the question of weather it's reasonable to be replacing one entity with bloody hands with another more powerful entity which has even bloodier hands.
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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Yes.


History isn't necessarily a reliable guide to human nature. There are less wars, less intervention and less colonialism than ever before.

You think making an informed decision based on previous history is the same as looking in a crystal ball. That's your view. Just think about it.

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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Is this the best that Iraq war apologists can do these days? Cynically invoking starving north koreans in order to justify an attack on a completely different country which ended up creating millions of corpses and refugees? Nice work.

I can't think of anything more nauseating than listening to some pompous Iraq war proponent position him/herself as a glorious hero and defender of democracy and human rights amongst a sea of Chamberlains. Democracy didn't matter to these folk when it came to invade and the public's opinion (which was against them) was neither respected nor sort, human rights and liberty didn't seem such a pressing concern when it was pointed out international law was against them and Saddam's abu grahib torturers were replaced with American ones, then Iraqi ones from the 'new' Iraq.

Yeah, the proponents care more about the Iraqis than the critics of the war did. They show this best when they channel Stalin and casually dismiss hundreds of thousands of deaths as 'justified'.

Are you at all skeptical about the wisdom of invading other countries under those kind of circumstances when you consider the millions of refugees and mutated children that the Iraq war created and continues to create, Coezi? Or did you conveniently stop reading any news about that country once the mission accomplished banner was wheeled out?

I'm not sure what's worse- being incapable of recognizing a total clusterfuck when you see one or suggesting we should do it again to some other country.

First it was 100,000, now it's "millions of corpses". It's obvious to me that you feel very strongly about this. That's fine, but can you not let it cloud your cognitive ability, please? I'm not interested in an argument with you about the pros and cons of the Iraqi invasion and the resulting extended occupation. It fact, I haven't even mentioned it so I truly have no idea why you have written a wall of text about it. regardless, I think you would be hard pressed finding anyone who thinks the whole saga from start to finish was handled well. I stress once again though, that I'm not interested in arguing with anyone about that.

You've made it fairly abundantly clear that you think Iraq under Sadaam was better left alone. How anyone who is as obviously passionate about the conservation of human life and rights as you are could stand idly by why a despotic psychopath carries out his agenda at the expense of his own people's lives is beyond me.

I'm not interested in criticising the way the Americans dealt with him, or debating the legitimacy of their reasons for invading. I'm interested in what YOU would have done. Considering you've already made it clear you would have done nothing. I've offered you another option. One that is still current and far more brutal. North Korea.

To make things crystal ball clear, this is the only part you need respond to:

- What would you do about the situation in North Korea currently? Taking into account the 200,000+ political prisoners in slave labour concentration camps for life. They also have the largest standing army in the world. Although they are poorly trained, poorly equipped and most likely starving.
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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Yes.


History isn't necessarily a reliable guide to human nature. There are less wars, less intervention and less colonialism than ever before.

Wow, this was the exact point I was making earlier. Good to see you've come around.

Last edited by gravyishot: 06-Dec-12 at 08:10am

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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Yes.
History isn't necessarily a reliable guide to human nature. There are less wars, less intervention and less colonialism than ever before.

That actually isn't true, we are actually now living through one of the most violent periods of human history.

You hear about wars a lot in history because they are interesting, but people fail to remember that history is over a time scale of thousands of years also many of those battles are overblown to hell, with only a few hundred taking place in them if that.

You didn't have millions of people dying in Medieval or pre-medieval conflicts (aside from the notable examples like the Mongols) these days you have millions dying in single conflicts.
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http://www.warsintheworld.com/?page=static1258254223

December 2012

Number of Countries involved in wars 60
Number Militias-guerrillas and separatist groups involved 366

I might sound like I'm smoking da erb here, but I'm tipping a World War 3 in the not too distant future
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Originally Posted by Portal View Post

http://www.warsintheworld.com/?page=static1258254223

December 2012

Number of Countries involved in wars 60
Number Militias-guerrillas and separatist groups involved 366

I might sound like I'm smoking da erb here, but I'm tipping a World War 3 in the not too distant future

Meh, World War 3 can only happen if great powers go directly at one another. Hasn’t happened since 1945 (although the cold war nearly went hot a few times).

I can’t see it happening anytime soon given how dependent economically they are on each other.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

I can’t see it happening anytime soon given how dependent economically they are on each other.

Quite, you could argue that China have already won, or that the real superpowers are the multinational companies and they can buy anything they like cheaply already and have no need to take anything by force, even the companies who are making their money with military hardware don't need a world war because there are so many little skirmishes already, as Portal pointed out, that they are quite content, especially since it doesn't affect their security.
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Originally Posted by horst View Post

Quite, you could argue that China have already won

you could, but you would look foolish.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

you could, but you would look foolish.

Well yeah, any external beef they might have is really swamped by their domestic problems.
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Originally Posted by horst View Post

Well yeah, any external beef they might have is really swamped by their domestic problems.

plus they invoke a special kind of distrust from their neighbours.

They are nigel no friends.
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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

That actually isn't true, we are actually now living through one of the most violent periods of human history.

You hear about wars a lot in history because they are interesting, but people fail to remember that history is over a time scale of thousands of years also many of those battles are overblown to hell, with only a few hundred taking place in them if that.

You didn't have millions of people dying in Medieval or pre-medieval conflicts (aside from the notable examples like the Mongols) these days you have millions dying in single conflicts.

No, we're not. We're living in one of the most peaceful periods in human history ever.

Violence like the An Lushan rebellion were some of the most destructive events in history.

Last edited by gravyishot: 06-Dec-12 at 09:26pm

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Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

No, we're not. We're living in one of the most peaceful periods in human history ever.

Violence like the An Lushan rebellion were some of the most destructive events in history.

busting out some medieval Han history gravy. Nice.
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Last edited by trist: 07-Dec-12 at 08:56am

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Originally Posted by trist View Post

plus they invoke a special kind of distrust from their neighbours.

They are nigel no friends.

This is when it's hard not to draw the conclusion you view China through a biased lens. It seems to me all super powers are deeply distrusted by their neighbours.
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By their neighbours, sure.

But the other superpowers of the world are generally more involved in creating a hegemony - NATO with the US, the Warsaw pact with the USSR.

The Chinese don't seem to be interested in that at all.
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Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

This is when it's hard not to draw the conclusion you view China through a biased lens. It seems to me all super powers are deeply distrusted by their neighbours.

This is when it's hard not to draw the conclusion that you are not all that interested in geo-politics and history.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

This is when it's hard not to draw the conclusion that you are not all that interested in geo-politics and history.

Why do you say that? I might not be as educated in history as you but I'd actually hazard a guess that my livelihood is more directly influenced by geopolitics than yours.

I know that Russia only does things like poison its neighbour's leadership candidates with dioxin. I know that the US has a history of bizarre deals with destabilising outcomes in Central and South America, most recently donating a shitload of guns to criminals in Mexico, and keeps south american countries poor.

Do I need to prove my interest by dropping facts about the relations between countries like Belarus and Kazakhstan and Russia?

By the way, Russia and the US are neighbours. To be honest, I thought your comment was incredibly simplistic, and loaded with bias, for whatever reason.
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Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

This is when it's hard not to draw the conclusion you view China through a biased lens. It seems to me all super powers are deeply distrusted by their neighbours.

They have no significant allies. Pakistan is probably the most significant, but they are nearly a failed state and also have close relations with the US (albeit highly strained of late). And really it’s entirely a strategic alliance to help counter India (China’s asian rival).

It is not just distrust that their neighbours have, it is fear. Nearly all their neighbours are in some kind of territorial dispute with China, and these are mostly not dormant disputes but are being aggressively pursued by China. What is really troubling is it is pushing Japan further to the right and giving strength to the crazies on the hard right of Japanese politics. Men like Shintaro Ishihara are on the ascendancy and even recently spoke of acquiring nuclear weapons due to the threat he believes is posed by China.

Why do you think Obama/Clinton have done their re-pivot to the asia-pacific? In part it is because they know they are wanted. Japan, the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, Indonesia and even freakin Vietnam have been pleading with the US for years to re-engage. India is even getting in on the act to try and stymie China’s aggressiveness.

Even Russia is concerned, particularly at the demographic imbalance between far east Russia and Manchuria. The recent APEC summit in Vladivostok signified Russia’s pivot toward re-engagement in asia and are investing heavily to strengthen their hold on the region via economic and population growth.
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Last edited by trist: 07-Dec-12 at 11:00am

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Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

Why do you say that? I might not be as educated in history as you but I'd actually hazard a guess that my livelihood is more directly influenced by geopolitics than yours.

I know that Russia only does things like poison its neighbour's leadership candidates with dioxin. I know that the US has a history of bizarre deals with destabilising outcomes in Central and South America, most recently donating a shitload of guns to criminals in Mexico, and keeps south american countries poor.

Do I need to prove my interest by dropping facts about the relations between countries like Belarus and Kazakhstan and Russia?

By the way, Russia and the US are neighbours. To be honest, I thought your comment was incredibly simplistic, and loaded with bias, for whatever reason.

dude, I was really just being a dick to be honest. I have a more adult response above.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

They have no significant allies. Pakistan is probably the most significant, but they are nearly a failed state and also have close relations with the US (albeit highly strained of late). And really it’s entirely a strategic alliance to help counter India (China’s asian rival).

It is not just distrust that their neighbours have, it is fear. Nearly all their neighbours are in some kind of territorial dispute with China, and these are mostly not dormant disputes but are being aggressively pursued by China. What is really troubling is it is pushing Japan further to the right and giving strength to the crazies on the hard right of Japanese politics. Men like Shintaro Ishihara are on the ascendancy and even recently spoke of acquiring nuclear weapons due to the threat he believes is posed by China.

Why do you think Obama/Clinton have done their re-pivot to the asia-pacific? In part it is because they know they are wanted. Japan, the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, Indonesia and even freakin Vietnam have been pleading with the US for years to re-engage. India is even getting in on the act to try and stymie China’s aggressiveness.

Even Russia is concerned, particularly at the demographic imbalance between far east Russia and Manchuria. The recent APEC summit in Vladivostok signified Russia’s pivot toward re-engagement in asia and are investing heavily to strengthen their hold on the region via economic and population growth.

As I've stated before it's energy geopolitics. China's activities in central Asia and South China Sea are all about energy. About oil and gas reserves and the energy supply chain.
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