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Is it time to clean up Kings Cross?

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http://www.smh.com.au/national/thirs...210-2b4qi.html

Haven't read the full report but the summary in the news story raises some questions.

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People who drank between one and five standard drinks before going to a venue were 1.5 times as likely to experience harm than those who didn’t drink beforehand, while those who drank six to 10 drinks were twice as likely. For those who drank 25 or more standard drinks prior to going out, their risk increased by 4.5 times.

People who drink more before they get into a club [it could be argued] are likely to drink more after they get in. These statistics don't necessarily speak to pre-drinks only. Also, who has 25 standard drinks before going out. That's over a full bottle of vodka.


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And the most effective way to deal with it is to increase the price of alcohol by introducing a levy on packaged drinks, Peter Miller, a Deakin University researcher and author of the study, says.
...
"We spent a lot of time trying to think of other ways to deal with pre-drinking and simply couldn't," Associate Professor Miller, from the School of Psychology, said.

When I was in uni pre-drinks were all about saving cash once you got to the pub. Reduce the costs of liquor licenses for pubs, prices go down, punters don't need to stock up on drinks beforehand. If you raise the cash of pre-packaged drinks you are likely to push people to buying straight spirits and mixing their own, which could turn out far worse.
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Yes I agree it's embarrassingly simplistic logic.
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Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

Yes I agree it's embarrassingly simplistic logic.

I agree. The obsession with singular or uniform solutions to complex issues that so many of our deemed "problem solvers" seem to adhere to is massively irritating I have to say.
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I can't believe all we ever hear about is MAKE IT MORE EXPENSIVE!!!

As you guys have mentioned it's a far more complex issue that relates to a drinking culture so deeply immersed in our society.
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Originally Posted by moojins View Post

http://www.smh.com.au/national/thirs...210-2b4qi.html

Reduce the costs of liquor licenses for pubs, prices go down, punters don't need to stock up on drinks beforehand. If you raise the cash of pre-packaged drinks you are likely to push people to buying straight spirits and mixing their own, which could turn out far worse.

That makes no sense...........a liquor license costs fuck all and it has no relevance to the price of drinks. Most venues have two main trading nights on Friday and saturday in which to make their money for the whole week, so you will see them charging accordingly.
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I was going to post that link in a new thread called "Home drinking is killing music" but as I've been beaten to the punch I will comment in this thread. The full report is here:

http://www.ndlerf.gov.au/pub/Monograph_43.pdf

and it's pretty telling that the first people they thank in their acknowledgements are all police, given that the report is tailor-made to support the police "close everything down at midnight" line.

Peter Miller was on Radio National this morning and on the basis of that performance, although there may be less effective advocate for alcohol law reform than him, I doubt it. He was not across hos own research, and in any event the research doesn't seem to distinguish between the outcomes for people who have consumed massive amounts of alcohol (for example, 25 standard drinks) before going out or while out. It is pretty obvious that if you drink more than a full bottle of spirits before going out, your night is likely to involve a bad outcome, but the same is true if you drink heavily whilst out.

And as for the comment that the researchers "couldn't think of a way to deal with pre-drinking", the answer is pretty obvious - enforce compliance with RSA requirements to ensure that intoxicated people are not admitted into venues or supplied with alcohol if they are intoxicated. It's not as if venues keep a tally of how many drinks have been consumed by each patron - rather, they look at behaviour when deciding when to cut someone off. That behaviour is no easier or harder to judge if they have been drinking in the venue, in the pub next door, or at home.
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Trying to shift the responsibility away from the pubs and clubs lobby, Obv
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Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

I
And as for the comment that the researchers "couldn't think of a way to deal with pre-drinking", the answer is pretty obvious - enforce compliance with RSA requirements to ensure that intoxicated people are not admitted into venues or supplied with alcohol if they are intoxicated. It's not as if venues keep a tally of how many drinks have been consumed by each patron - rather, they look at behaviour when deciding when to cut someone off. That behaviour is no easier or harder to judge if they have been drinking in the venue, in the pub next door, or at home.

putting the onus back on the venue is ridiculous. You can't tackle a cultural problem of alcohol or drug fuelled violence by expecting the venue to play nanny for everyone. The biggest problem in the Cross is the sheer number of people in such a small area and the density of bars/clubs. Add to that the frustration and boredom of people who are refused entry and you have a classic recipe for trouble. I really don't see a solution other than limiting the number of bars/clubs or limiting trading hours and perhaps even the strength of drinks.
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You make an interesting point with the drinking culture line, but your solution is too top down. Limiting trading hours or the number of clubs will only concentrate patrons in time and space and exacerbate the problem. Getting kids who can handle their booze and know their limits would be a better solution in my view. It would be interesting to see the age breakdown of alcohol related violence - ultimately it might be time to kick the drinking age up to 21, though that would admittedly bring its own challenges.

Last edited by moojins: 11-Dec-12 at 06:04pm

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Its so sad, I know Perth is a country town away from Sydney but we have our fair share of trouble in the CBD / Northbridge.

I'v worked as a bartender for the last 2 years right in the middle of it, and it's such a waste of lives.

A bump, a comment, someone's girlfriend telling a sleaze to "fuck off" or whateva, is all it takes for someone to fall at full speed onto the concrete and get their brain bleeding.

Most of these people wouldn't beat a guy to death, its just sad that they don't realise that one punch is all it takes to do that.

It makes me really sad everytime I have to call the ambulance for someene. My advice anyway if anyone doesn't already know it :

Be in a club, or going somewhere, don't hang around. If there is a situation nearby just keep your eyes down and walk quickly, then if you get started on just a quick "sorry bro" and a hands up gesture is probably a good start, cigarettes don't hurt either, and a good joke or saying something relatable is definetly a winner

Don't get offended if someone says "let me fuck ya girlfriend bro, you got a small dick ****!", you should be offended, but he just wants to go. Keep walking, get to a pub with friendly faces, buy a few drinks, have a dance, and have a good time.

Also, please don't get too drunk if you've got something negative on your mind. I've found its usually people with a chip on their shoulder who cause the most trouble.

By the time of the weekend though i'm sure i'll see a few more hysterical girlfriends crying over their unconscious boyfriends though. Sad state of affairs though when in a country where you can just put in a medium amount of effort and be relatively successful, that so many people still need to resort to violence.

Peace, and please don't be offended the next time the bartender cuts you off. He's just making sure you don't call that guy around the corner with 5 mates a fucking wanker when he calls you girlfriend a dumbslut.

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Originally Posted by buffed View Post

putting the onus back on the venue is ridiculous. You can't tackle a cultural problem of alcohol or drug fuelled violence by expecting the venue to play nanny for everyone. The biggest problem in the Cross is the sheer number of people in such a small area and the density of bars/clubs. Add to that the frustration and boredom of people who are refused entry and you have a classic recipe for trouble. I really don't see a solution other than limiting the number of bars/clubs or limiting trading hours and perhaps even the strength of drinks.

My solution may involve limiting the number of bars/clubs, in that if the venue doesn't have the ability to "play nanny for everyone" (that is monitor the effects of the drinks that it is serving and the conduct in its premises) then that venue would lose the ability to trade. I'm not sure that a blanket ban on the strength of drinks helps - I can understand the merits of banning shots or doubles after a certain time, but I don't think that should affect the ability of a cocktail bar to serve me a Martini.
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Here is my solution for the Cross. I call it the "Amsterdam solution".
  1. Establish a special recreation precinct which would probably include William St between College St and Victoria St, Darlinghurst Road and Victoria St between Burton St and Orwell St.
  2. Issue cannabis and mushroom licences to coffee shops in that zone.
  3. Require all clubs to have no more than 60% hard surfaces.
  4. Require all clubs to employ rigorous door policies (eg Berghain)
  5. Require all clubs to hire the 100 or more excellent DJs in Sydney and get rid of the push-button tools now masquerading as such and delivering up crap music.
I guarantee you it will be a better place.
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let me know hows its going, i may need to get some decks again
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Quote:

Originally Posted by moojins View Post

You make an interesting point with the drinking culture line, but your solution is too top down. Limiting trading hours or the number of clubs will only concentrate patrons in time and space and exacerbate the problem. Getting kids who can handle their booze and know their limits would be a better solution in my view. It would be interesting to see the age breakdown of alcohol related violence - ultimately it might be time to kick the drinking age up to 21, though that would admittedly bring its own challenges.

How?

This is my irritation with the 'anti nanny state' criticism (i'm going off on a wild generalisation here, not you specifically) of using price, trading hours and service restrictions as mechanisms of control of alcohol consumption.

How do people actually propose to change drinking culture in Australia? What evidence is there to suggest that such solutions would actually make an impact?

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Originally Posted by B_e_de View Post

It's the same as going out on a busy street and looking at the people around you, most of them are fgts.

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C'mon Yoss, what good are studies going to do?

It's a well know fact that our society has never had problems with alcohol in previous generations. It's completely a new phenomenon. Just ask any baby boomer. They won't even remember what the Temperance Union was - they were all way to wasted on LSD and mushrooms to drink.

It's just like murder. Obviously way more violence happens now because all of our kids are mindless thugs unlike the paragons of yesteryear.*

Obviously kids today are to blame for all of societies ills and society is going to hell in a hand basket. The best approach is to randomly make their lives more annoying until they start behaving in the manner we stereotype them in.

* Australia's murder rate per 100,000 people was 1.16 in 2010 compared with 2.0 in 1976. But we always hear about how much more violent our culture has become. I expect it's the same with booze.
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Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

* Australia's murder rate per 100,000 people was 1.16 in 2010 compared with 2.0 in 1976. But we always hear about how much more violent our culture has become. I expect it's the same with booze.

Alcohol consumption per capita has also steadily dropped since the 70s.

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That's pretty much what I expected.

Found the ABS stats on it. Baby Boomers were actually a massive bunch of pissheads even with all the LSD. Greedy fucks.

Why won't anyone think about the children!?! Or breweries?
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@Yoss: Education, socioeconomic development? I really don't know. I* do think that the problem stems more from culture than it does from inadequate regulation.

@Grigs: It's been my subjective experience that younger people are more prone to alcohol related violence. It's why I thought an age break down of the ARV stats would be interesting. Happy to be proved wrong on this.

I don't know if you are refuting my suggestion about increasing the drinking age to 21 because it's hard to extract detail from 9 sentences of straight sarcasm. I would remind you though that I made no judgements about the state of ARV now as compared to then. And I certainly didn't suggest that young people are the bane of our existence (I'm a good 15 years away from that line of argument).

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I'm showing my age but I was going out in the Cross since the late 70s (Manzil Room). And the Chevron I think (may have been 1980). It's always been rough and I reckon it was rougher then. It's been rough since world war II. And I think it's totally easy to avoid getting into any shit if you have half a brain.
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Moojins, I'm merely pointing out that this is in reality a complete non-issue.

Young people drink less, kill each other less and are more likely to report crimes to police, and those same police are more likely to actually investigate those crimes than at any other point in Australia's history. At Federation btw the murder per 100,000 was also 1.8. in the late 80's it pushed up to just below 2.0 then has been in freefall ever since.

You are basically around 60% as likely to die due to violence now than at any point in the entire history of Australia. And if you were to be killed, your murderer would be more likely to go to jail for it than at any other point in Australia's history.

It's inconceivable that there would be a general increase in violent behaviour without a corresponding (not necessarily equal however) rise in the homicide rate. After all the ads tell us "One punch can kill."

But whenever we see stories about how our society is becoming more violent, the figures used are always reported assaults. Note the word "reported." Given the lack of corresponding deaths (which is a far more accurate measure of violent crime as people are far more likely to report a murder than a violent assault) this is probably more an indication that people are more likely to report violent crime now.

So if anything society has not only become less violent, we've also become less accepting of violent behaviour when it does happen.

These stories about drunken bogans running amuck would probably have been ignored as commonplace a couple of decades ago and barely considered newsworthy. With 24 hour news now however, they need content. Thus the campaigns to limit alcohol consumption based on the erroneous premise that violent crime is increasing when it is doing nothing of the sort.

Basically this entire issue can best be summed up by "Why won't anyone think about the children?"
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

I'm showing my age but I was going out in the Cross since the late 70s (Manzil Room). And the Chevron I think (may have been 1980). It's always been rough and I reckon it was rougher then. It's been rough since world war II. And I think it's totally easy to avoid getting into any shit if you have half a brain.

The Cross has always been rough, but there was never 10,000 drunk people roaming the streets in the 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's. There were far less bars and clubs and far less people generally. The current situation there is impossible to control at the moment and the last time i went there on a saturday night, there were flare ups every ten minutes on the streets. Generally, yes it is easy to avoid getting into shit, but the point is, groups of young guys in particular are going there with the intention of causing and getting into shit and that makes it an intimidating place for people who are generally there to have a night out
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The Cross has always been rough, but there was never 10,000 drunk people roaming the streets in the 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's. There were far less bars and clubs and far less people generally. The current situation there is impossible to control at the moment and the last time i went there on a saturday night, there were flare ups every ten minutes on the streets. Generally, yes it is easy to avoid getting into shit, but the point is, groups of young guys in particular are going there with the intention of causing and getting into shit and that makes it an intimidating place for people who are generally there to have a night out

Yeah, I was gonna say that it didn't seem to be a complete river of drunk, violent slobs spewing out every which way when I was going there in the 90's. There was mos def some sketchy psychotics hanging about though who were normally quite avoidable if you weren't too munted.
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I bet the music was better too

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And kids weren't as fat as they are these days either
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My favourite time in the Cross was probably going there at about 8pm on a Tuesday, stone cold sober, to get some pancakes

There was nobody around but bouncers and hookers. Jeez that must be a lonely life when there's nobody around to bash and no dicks to suck.
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Quote:

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The Cross has always been rough, but there was never 10,000 drunk people roaming the streets in the 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's. There were far less bars and clubs and far less people generally. The current situation there is impossible to control at the moment and the last time i went there on a saturday night, there were flare ups every ten minutes on the streets. Generally, yes it is easy to avoid getting into shit, but the point is, groups of young guys in particular are going there with the intention of causing and getting into shit and that makes it an intimidating place for people who are generally there to have a night out

Yes I agree buffed. But there were also a bunch of streets you would never walk down at night even in the early 2000s which are OK now. The nature of the violence and the problem has changed I agree. It's really ugly. And it's a result of wacked urban planning which has resulted in 12,000 square kilometres of urban wasteland exploited by developers with no effort made to provide local cultural centres. Go figure.
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Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

Yes I agree buffed. But there were also a bunch of streets you would never walk down at night even in the early 2000s which are OK now. The nature of the violence and the problem has changed I agree. It's really ugly. And it's a result of wacked urban planning which has resulted in 12,000 square kilometres of urban wasteland exploited by developers with no effort made to provide local cultural centres. Go figure.

This is so true. It's the reason the Mean Fiddler is one of the most, if not the most violent pub in Sydney. It's the only fucking place for teenages to go with-in a 10km radius, before that the Castle Hill tavern had the same problem.

In Europe you can walk for 5 min from anywhere and find yourself in some kind of drinking venue. There's probably one below your room.
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There's probably one below your room.

It opens tomorrow.
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This is so true. It's the reason the Mean Fiddler is one of the most, if not the most violent pub in Sydney. It's the only fucking place for teenages to go with-in a 10km radius, before that the Castle Hill tavern had the same problem.

In Europe you can walk for 5 min from anywhere and find yourself in some kind of drinking venue. There's probably one below your room.

But continental europeans don't have an ingrained culture of binge drinking. it's predominately an anglo saxon thing as is the fighting
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But continental europeans don't have an ingrained culture of binge drinking. it's predominately an anglo saxon thing as is the fighting

That may have been true once upon a time but I don't think it's particularly true anymore unfortunately.
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@ Buffed: young males from Scandinavia and the low countries would suggest otherwise (and let's not get started on the alcohol isuses in Poland and Russia)
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It's the reason the Mean Fiddler is one of the most, if not the most violent pub in Sydney.

its in blacktown (local government area) isn't it, stands to reason that a big flash beer barn in blacktown has issues with violence
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That may have been true once upon a time but I don't think it's particularly true anymore unfortunately.

It's true. Saw more drunks in a night in London than in 2.5 months on the continent. Europeans can see the stark differences in our drinking cultures when they're here and vice versa.
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We just fight more, we don't drink more.
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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But continental europeans don't have an ingrained culture of binge drinking. it's predominately an anglo saxon thing as is the fighting


ever been to Bavaria?

disagree that fighting is an anglo saxon thing as well... it's just a douche thing. having worked at Epping hotel (you heard it, I worked at traxx!) the worst issues were ethnic minorities that sat at the back of the club and drank coke. You'd occasionally get the odd biff between 2 blokes but it was usually over a chick rather than guys going out looking to cause fights.
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As a european, I'm offended that you'd question my ability or desire to drink aggressively and fight.
Try going to any street in Ireland, Cardiff City, Nottingham, Edinburgh, Prague, nearly ANYWHERE in Poland, Ukraine, even Paris and you will find drunken, shitty kids getting up to no good when away from the watchful eyes of their parents.

It's a combination of boredom, religious expectation and brow-beating, peer and parental influence, lack of education, lack of intelligence and basic predisposition to violence. There are way too many variables to blame one in particular and in the same regard there are just as many components to finding a balanced solution.

Smart money would be spent on looking at all the cities in the world that are doing it better and finding what concoction of ideas would work best without damaging commercial successes of the local business, impacting the people's choices for going out and feeling of safety vs autonomy while still disincentivising violence and keeping away trouble-makers..

As for a solution to address the drinking culture? Simple. Every alcoholic drink you buy (either in a bottleshop or bar) you get a swift kick in the nuts, progressively getting more and more forceful for every drink you buy.

Kings Cross, I have just fixed your drinking problem (and stabilised the population)
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Quote:

Originally Posted by pEAkeR_hAT View Post

We just fight more, we don't drink more.

Well yeah it's not the drinking thats the problem, it's the inability to behave when drinking that anglos are prone to.

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not liking yoda is like knocking back a root when presented nude in a YD change room

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^mmmm all this talk of meat is getting me excited.

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Anyone watch this?

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stori...25/3695353.htm
All mixes, tunes and gigs info at Kazuki.com.au
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Yeah I saw it. Fuck I wanted to punch that smug **** from the AHA in the throat. Greedy, cynical fucks.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

Yeah I saw it. Fuck I wanted to punch that smug **** from the AHA in the throat. Greedy, cynical fucks.

Word. One understands that he has to advance his members' interests but surely it is possible to do that without coming across as such an odious slimebag.

One of the people in my twwetstream commented that the Four Corners should be shown to all teenagers - I think there is a lot to be said for that.
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I'm not sure who was slimier - him or the Scientology lawyer on the later article about the Taiwanese girl who was allegedly held against her will by the church in Australia. Vile oxygen theives both of them.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

Yeah I saw it. Fuck I wanted to punch that smug **** from the AHA in the throat. Greedy, cynical fucks.

He was smug. He did have a point about it being a societal issue though. Although seeing as they are part of society they should accept that they are contributers to the problem. I don't think it would be fair to say they are the cause.

Personal responsibility has to come into play here. Most of us don't go get smashed on the cans as a prelude to seeing how many blokes in a night we can clunk like tenpins. Not like that absolutely filthy wrong'n fuck who kinghit that poor bloke into lifelong mental and physical oblivion.

And didn't the 4 Corners report even intimate that alcohol related violence hasn't gone up, only that the consequences and repercussions of alcohol fuelled violence tend to be more severe these days?
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It was more the way the AHA twat flat-out denied that alcohol was part of the problem, tried to finger other drugs, and also tried to deny the efficacy of licensing restrictions in places like Newcadtle that shat me. Plus I haven't forgotten the shit the AHA pulled when they were opposing the NSW small bar licensing changes. They are interested in nothing apart from ensuring that a select group of pub barons continue to get their pockets lined, they don't really even have any genuine interest in fostering a vibrant bar culture as long as their snouts are kept firmly in the trough.

Last edited by SpaceMonkey: 26-Feb-13 at 10:48am

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Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Most of us don't go get smashed on the cans as a prelude to seeing how many blokes in a night we can clunk like tenpins.

It would be a much better world if instead beating other people they went home to write slam poetry on the internet.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post


And didn't the 4 Corners report even intimate that alcohol related violence hasn't gone up, only that the consequences and repercussions of alcohol fuelled violence tend to be more severe these days?

i didn't see the show, but if the increase of muscle bound dudes you see around the place over the past 10 or so years is anything to go by, i wonder whether the ability of people to seriously hurt someone while they are probably roid raging is the biggest factor.

the evolution of the string bean, sinewy bogan wearing black stone washed jeans into a meatheads built like choads that wear bright fancy colours is probably to blame.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

It was more the way the AHA twat flat-out denied that alcohol was part of the problem, tried to finger other drugs, and also tried to deny the efficacy of licensing restrictions in places like Newcadtle that shat me. Plus I haven't forgotten the shit the AHA pulled when they were opposing the NSW small bar licensing changes. They are interested in nothing apart from ensuring that a select group of pub barons continue to get their pockets lined, they don't really even have any genuine interest in fostering a vibrant bar culture as long as their snouts are kept firmly in the trough.

Neither will I. NSW President of the AMA John Thorpe famously said in 2007 when Clover Moore was introducing the legislation:

Quote:

"We aren't barbarians, but we don't want to sit in a hole and drink chardonnay and read a book." "People can sit down, talk about history, chew the fat and gaze into each others eyes and all this sort of baloney but it's pie in the sky stuff," "That's not what Sydney wants."

You know what Sydney wants Thorpie? To run you and your rum corps mates out of town.
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Last edited by trist: 26-Feb-13 at 12:49pm

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It tickles me that she keeps getting re-elected while the blue noses cluck their tongues, stroke their beards and wonder 'what's to be done with this Clover Moore?!'
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

It was more the way the AHA twat flat-out denied that alcohol was part of the problem, tried to finger other drugs, and also tried to deny the efficacy of licensing restrictions in places like Newcadtle that shat me. Plus I haven't forgotten the shit the AHA pulled when they were opposing the NSW small bar licensing changes. They are interested in nothing apart from ensuring that a select group of pub barons continue to get their pockets lined, they don't really even have any genuine interest in fostering a vibrant bar culture as long as their snouts are kept firmly in the trough.

All valid points. Don't get me wrong, the guy was a spiv and the AHA are a front group for wealthy businessmen (as Trist said) and I don't like them not because of that but because of the points you outlined. I was mainly saying that the guy had a point which you rightly jogged my memory by mentioning they (the AHA) weren't interested in confronting the role they should be playing, blaming everything and everyone else.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

Neither will I. NSW President of the AMA John Thorpe famously said in 2007 when Clover Moore was introducing the legislation:



You know what Sydney wants Thorpie? To run you and your rum corps mates out of town.

Interesting. Sadly it's a common theme throughout Australia.

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So in SA, unlike the other states, if you try to open any venue selling alcohol, your competitors – other bars, hotels and so on – can demand you prove there’s a social “need” for your business and exercise a “right to object”. The common objection they raise is that if they’re already selling Coopers on tap, there’s no “need” for you to do so. The aim of that clearly isn’t about “need”, it’s about preventing potential competitors from selling the standard beer everyone drinks in Adelaide.

http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/opini...brant-Adelaide

I think WA's liquor licencing laws are even more retarded.

I'm always suspicious of the agendas of people who make a huge issue out of public health. Often it is not as well intentioned as stated.
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