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Is it time to clean up Kings Cross?

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Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

Interesting. Sadly it's a common theme throughout Australia.



http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/opini...brant-Adelaide

I think WA's liquor licencing laws are even more retarded.

I'm always suspicious of the agendas of people who make a huge issue out of public health. Often it is not as well intentioned as stated.

Yeah, we have "social impact statements" in NSW for some of the more controversial things such as brothels, strip clubs, pubs etc. Really, most of it is just paying lip service to NIMBYism.
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So Kieran Loveridge pleads guilty to manslaughter over the death of Thomas Kelly.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/how-can-an...618-2ogv2.html

Self indulgently quoting myself

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Originally Posted by horst View Post

Yeah he was, but I don't think he will be convicted of murder, I think it's more a way to butter him up to pleading guilty to manslaughter and to shorten the trial.
Although his continuing to hit people after he hit Thomas Kelly will be really crucial in determining the level of intent.

This is a little bit sad, that the family feels they are not being revenged enough, but the reality is that if he had gone on trial for murder Loveridge could have very possibly walked free.
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Originally Posted by horst View Post

So Kieran Loveridge pleads guilty to manslaughter over the death of Thomas Kelly.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/how-can-an...618-2ogv2.html

This is a little bit sad, that the family feels they are not being revenged enough, but the reality is that if he had gone on trial for murder Loveridge could have very possibly walked free.

It's pretty sad that the SMH is reduced to running this sort of sub-tabloid bilge before the paywall comes in.

If the DPP hasn't explained to the parents that murder needs an intention to kill, or to cause grievous harm, then maybe the SMH "crime editor" could have done them the service of explaining that rather than running ridiculous stories like this. Criminal trials are not run for the amusement of a victim;s family, and there is a considerable public cost in running a committal, and then a trial (assuming that a murder charge here got past the committal stage, which is not a given).

Loveridge is a nasty piece of work who'll go to jail for a considerable period, but just because you punch a number of people doesn't mean that you intended to kill any of them, and without the intent, a murder charge would have been inappropriate.
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Unfortunately for the family you are spot on. Makes you wonder though... What was his intent?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Coezi View Post

Unfortunately for the family you are spot on. Makes you wonder though... What was his intent?

It probably wasn't, to kill someone with loads of people around, hoping that at the inevitable trial, that he was going to get away with it by suggesting that he possibly couldn't have the intention to kill someone... because there were so many people around.

He was just out to be a dickhead, which he achieved wonderfully, I'm guessing he's going to get 8 years, 4 non-parole so out in 3 years, which means more pain for Kelly's unfortunately delusional family.

Last edited by horst: 20-Jun-13 at 10:40am

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Maybe if he had tripped the guy over and run off laughing I'd agree with you. I do agree that his intent was not to kill. However I believe it was to fuck someone up as much as possible without killing them.

I can just imagine the shit saying to his mates "I fucked up four ****s last night haha... Ricky saw me...ay Ricky? Pretty sure I broke one of their jaws too haha".

For me he deserves 10 years non-parole. He should come out when he's 30+ so none of his friends remember him and those that do have moved on. He should have his life back, but not the best part of it.
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I understand manslaughter in the case of accidents and self defence, but this guy did an unprovoked attack on an innocent person. Why does his intent matter, the outcome of his actions is what should matter.
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How bout some good old 'merican "felony murder" laws in oz?

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THE MODEL PENAL CODE

The Model Penal Code moved away from the traditional common law approach to murder. Under the Model Penal Code, the following constitute murder:

Purposefully or knowingly killing another human being. This functions much the same as the common law rule against intentional murder.
Killing another human being in circumstances showing extreme recklessness. This functions much the same as the common law's depraved heart murder rule.
Felony-murder. The Model Penal Code disfavors but does not eliminate applying the death penalty for killings that occur during the commission of a felony. Instead of framing the rule as a felony-murder rule, it creates a rebuttable presumption that killings that occur during the commisison of listed dangerous felonies show extreme recklessness for purposes of the code's other murder provisions.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder
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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst View Post

He was just out to be a dickhead, which he achieved wonderfully, I'm guessing he's going to get 8 years, 4 non-parole so out in 3 years, which means more pain for Kelly's unfortunately delusional family.

I am normally the first to defend our justice system but I have to say if this guy only gets 8 years it would be far too lenient. Surely he should cop a whole bunch of other charges on top of manslaughter: like every charge against violence and disorderly conduct on top of the manslaughter charge.

I don't think a murder charge would ever be provable beyond reasonable doubt but he surely should cop a whole heap of other charges related to the assault.
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Originally Posted by Fewsion View Post

How bout some good old 'merican "felony murder" laws in oz?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder

If you drive over and kill a customer you didn't see during a ram raid then you get charged with murder, despite your intent to just rob the shop. Sounds logical to me.
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Any acceptable felonies for you walkdogz? Armed robbery perhaps?
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Well I just said one scenario I thought acceptable. If you shot and killed someone during an armed robbery "accidentally" then yeah.
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Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

Well I just said one scenario I thought acceptable. If you shot and killed someone during an armed robbery "accidentally" then yeah.

We do have a felony murder rule in NSW - see the second part of s 18(1)(a) of the Crimes Act, below:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/n...90082/s18.html

The reason why intent is relevant is because that is what is required to make a homicide murder. If I push you out of my way in a pub and you fall, striking your head and suffering fatal injuries, the crime should be different to a crime at which I shoot you in the head.

It is also important to remember that just because the charge is manslaughter rather than murder does not mean that a heavy sentence will be imposed if the offence warrants it - manslaughter is punishable by imprisonment for up to 25 years.
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LA: So this knacker's actions must fall somewhere between pushing someone out of the way and shooting someone in the head: can it not be inferred by the fact that he had king-hit people prior to and after the fateful blow to Thomas Kelly that he did have intent to seriously injure?

All instances were unprovoked assaults. All instances had the victims unknowingly being hit. That shows intent doesn't it? If he wasn't intent on seriously hurting his victims it would be reasonable to assume that he might have pushed them a bit beforehand allowing victims to brace themselves and at least try and avert danger through bracing themselves or running away..
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same old same old,

be alert, go out with a group of mates, don't act like an easy target

i've seen 5 KO'd people since my last post,

thank god none of them fell bad on their heads
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

All instances were unprovoked assaults. All instances had the victims unknowingly being hit. That shows intent doesn't it? If he wasn't intent on seriously hurting his victims it would be reasonable to assume that he might have pushed them a bit beforehand allowing victims to brace themselves and at least try and avert danger through bracing themselves or running away..

It's not just intent to injure that has to be shown - it's intent to cause grievous bodily harm, which in English means "really serious bodily harm". It is always going to be difficult to show that a person who throws only punch has this intent - the position is obviously different is there is an attack with a number of punches and if there is kicking or stamping involved as well. In a sense, the number of attacks actually tells against the necessary intent - you might set out to seriously injure one person, but it is less likely that you would form the necessary intent on a number of different and separate occasions.

Think about it this way - if you wanted to cause someone really serious bodily injury, would you punch them once with your bare hand and run away, or would you adopt some other course to achieve that objective? It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a particular person might admit to the necessary intent, but in the absence of an admission, when all you have is the objective conduct, it would be pretty hard to get a jury to find the necessary intent beyond reasonable doubt.
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Punching someone hard enough to floor them in one hit is proof enough surely. Makes absolutely no sense that multiple i.e. softer hits negates this. He fucked him up with one vicious punch, I can only imagine it would've looked that way if you were there. So detached to start arguing the little number of hits as grounds to diminish his intent.
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anyone who is anyone knows that you can kill someone with one punch,

honestly,

should be way harsher penalties

i dunno, working at a bar for so many years i feel that maybe there should be some grass outside every pub, or a boxing ring, its just so sad when you see people give someone a bad look or something because they are drunk then they lose their life

but i guess you can't legislate against testosterone, youth and women, so what can you do

would be keen to hear from a few bouncers or cops, but i'm sure its all the same anyway
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

Punching someone hard enough to floor them in one hit is proof enough surely. Makes absolutely no sense that multiple i.e. softer hits negates this. He fucked him up with one vicious punch, I can only imagine it would've looked that way if you were there. So detached to start arguing the little number of hits as grounds to diminish his intent.

Yeh I think it's well enough accepted that one punch (particularly a vicious sucker-punch against an unsuspecting victim) is likely to have grievous consequences, likely enough for it to be considered attempted GBH.

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Con Air covered this in depth
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Yes, it's abundantly clear that our legal system, one of the fairest, most stable in the world and developed over hundreds of years by experts in the field, is now suddenly inadequate and run by idiots. On the other hand, a bunch of people with no legal training whatsoever have a much better idea of what constitutes or proves an offence and what (always harsher) sentence should be applied.

Social and broadcast media kangaroo courts are obviously so much better.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

Punching someone hard enough to floor them in one hit is proof enough surely. Makes absolutely no sense that multiple i.e. softer hits negates this. He fucked him up with one vicious punch, I can only imagine it would've looked that way if you were there. So detached to start arguing the little number of hits as grounds to diminish his intent.

We all know one punch can kill but I think LA's point, if I've understood it correctly, is that it is very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one punch, even if it is a suckerpunch, is intended to cause grievous bodily harm or to cause death. That he only landed one punch then ran off does seem to suggest that he was only being a filthy agro dickhead: or at least it would be hard to prove anything beyond this.

I'm sure that is no help to the parents of Thomas Kelly but it doesn't make it less true.
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Here's a question: what do you think a reasonable assumption as to intent is when somebody gets randomly sucker-punched, taking into account the well known potential results?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

Here's a question: what do you think a reasonable assumption as to intent is when somebody gets randomly sucker-punched, taking into account the well known potential results?

Could be a whole range from to hurt to seriously injure to kill: what LA is saying is it'd be too hard to prove the higher end of the spectrum when a not guilty plea is tendered then proving beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm not saying I like it nor that I don't want this scumbag to go away for a long time.
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Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

Here's a question: what do you think a reasonable assumption as to intent is when somebody gets randomly sucker-punched, taking into account the well known potential results?

However well know it is, it is extremely unlikely that one is going to die from one punch, and considering that he (Kelly) didn't die from the punch but from the fall, it is also moot.
I think how he (Loveridge) is sentenced will depend a lot on how he carries himself in court, or maybe more how he is assessed by psychologists,
because while the outcome of the punch is one thing, the fact that he thought it was okay to randomly hit people is another.
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Here's a question: what do you think a reasonable assumption as to intent is when somebody gets randomly sucker-punched, taking into account the well known potential results?

Criminal law is not about reasonable assumptions; it's about proof beyond reasonable doubt.

In a civil claim for damages, the point you make would be a very good one; in that context, a wrongdoer is assumed to intend anything which is a "natural and probable consequence" of their wrongful act, and judged by that standard, death will often be a natural and probable consequence of a single punch.

However, to sustain a charge of murder, intent must be proved beyond reasonable doubt, not assumed. It is possible to prove intent objectively, for example, if you shoot someone in the head at point blank range, but the fact that the possible result of a single punch might be death or GBH doesn't prove that this was the result that was intended.
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^i think there's a pretty strong argument for GBH in that case still. Intent to kill, no.
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Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

In a civil claim for damages, the point you make would be a very good one; in that context, a wrongdoer is assumed to intend anything which is a "natural and probable consequence" of their wrongful act, and judged by that standard, death will often be a natural and probable consequence of a single punch.

a punch to the head is unlikely to kill, ide hazard a guess that on a saturday night around 50 people-anywhere from the cross to the druitt and areas inbetween get punched in the head and aren't killed.
Police kicked down the back door and cornered the man in the bathtub.
"What?" he is alleged to have told police. "I'm having a bath."
However, police will allege the suspect was still wearing shorts.
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if you punch a stranger in the face as hard as you can you can gtfo IMO

half the time the dude who's hitten insta regrets that shit

i swear if half the smokin ads were replaced with fighting ones at least one ilfe would be saved!
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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Good point. Don't think there's any ads on tv about that afaik
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Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

a punch to the head is unlikely to kill, ide hazard a guess that on a saturday night around 50 people-anywhere from the cross to the druitt and areas inbetween get punched in the head and aren't killed.

A punch in itself isn't, agreed. But cracking your head on a pavement/curb after being knocked cold by a sucker punch probably has a much higher chance of causing a fatal injury, and probably more often than not causes some significant injury. Hence why I think sucker punches should be treated as more serious in intent than a punch thrown during a scuffle or argument where it might be at least partly expected.
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^ 100%, there needs to be accountability for results of peoples actions, if you kill somebody in a car crash or an unprovoked assault then your punishment needs to reflect that outcome, lack of intent should be irrelevant as a defence/negating factor.

In a technical sense the hits in this clip are sucker punches-yet were they uncalled for?
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Police kicked down the back door and cornered the man in the bathtub.
"What?" he is alleged to have told police. "I'm having a bath."
However, police will allege the suspect was still wearing shorts.
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Always uncalled for. We live in a civilized society where law and order prevail. Trying to dish out vigilante justice (especially while intoxicated) is just begging for disaster. What if he missed with his punch and got his head stomped ? What if someone had a knife?

etc.etc.

Even Bas Rutten says his best weapon as a bouncer was his mouth!
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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That YouTube video is pathetic, all these losers in the comments talking about the merits of street fighting honourably or just knocking ppl out. If fighting is a genuine interest of yours then you're seriously lacking in other areas of your life.
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Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

That YouTube video is pathetic, all these losers in the comments talking about the merits of street fighting honourably or just knocking ppl out. If fighting is a genuine interest of yours then you're seriously lacking in other areas of your life.

Fuck I remember when I was doing my training to get my work tickets, there were more than a couple of macho dicks who loved a scrap on the course, including one of the instructors, his favourite call was "I'm a lover, not a fighter, I just love fighting". Made me seriously question doing this job, luckily the crews I've worked with in Sydney are pretty much all decent guys.

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tbh, two willing sober participants in a relatively safe environment is miles better then retards pot shotting eachother blind drunk,

i
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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a safe environment is a boxing ring or mma gym etc ie treat it as a sport
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Yay, kind of what I was hoping for is happening. WA's biggest boxer (and most liked guy in Perth) is doing this :


Green - Stop One Punch Violence Campaign
By Brett Bonetti

Triple World Champion Danny “The Green Machine” Green held a press conference in Perth today to urge young men to end senseless one punch violence. Green was today featured on the front page of The West Australian newspaper as he hopes the government will use a TV commercial he has made in a campaign against violence and to help educate young men.

Green has made the commercial because of the number of lives ruined by one punch attacks and he feels he is in a position to influence young men who look up to him.

"I'm not trying to preach or tell them what to do, I'm just trying to ask them to take a step back every now and then and think before they act” Green said “Hopefully I can get into their ear and they can get into their mates' heads"

"There's been a shift in the way society thinks from the old school values that we were brought up with" Green said.

Green said reports of young men being maimed by knockout punches were becoming far too common and wants harsher penalties to stop people using gutless and weak king hits.

Click out this link to view an excerpt from the TV commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCju3...ature=youtu.be

Click on this link to hear today’s 882 6PR talkback radio interview: http://www.6pr.com.au/blogs/6pr-pert...924-26g2q.html
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Originally Posted by mliro View Post

that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post

A punch in itself isn't, agreed. But cracking your head on a pavement/curb after being knocked cold by a sucker punch probably has a much higher chance of causing a fatal injury, and probably more often than not causes some significant injury. Hence why I think sucker punches should be treated as more serious in intent than a punch thrown during a scuffle or argument where it might be at least partly expected.

In related news, the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal says that risk of much more serious injury is a relevant sentencing factor in "one punch" cases which involve only actual, not grievous bodily, harm:

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action...?jgmtid=166003
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What is the difference between ABH and GBH, legally speaking?
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So the X is introducing ID scanning at 35 venues

They get barred from entering venues but where will they go, run amuck on the streets?

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/kings-cros...917-2txba.html
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Originally Posted by horst View Post


He was just out to be a dickhead, which he achieved wonderfully, I'm guessing he's going to get 8 years, 4 non-parole so out in 3 years, which means more pain for Kelly's unfortunately delusional family.

So he got 5 years 7months, 4 years non-parole, for the Kelly killing, and 5 years 2months total non-parole including the other offences, and as predicted, not enough for Kelly's family.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/kieran-lov...108-2x5j5.html

Last edited by horst: 08-Nov-13 at 03:58pm

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Well predicted.

Disgusting outcome and completely out of line with society's expectations.
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Hmm Society is supposed to expect that judgements are consistent, which the judge said he tried to achieve, which is remarkable in itself because that is in fact his job, if society is expecting something different then society needs a cold shower.
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4 years doesn't sound consistent with other killings involving assaults. Drunk drivers get more.
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From my brief glance at the list of cases it seemed entirely consistent.
Well you could then argue that drunk drivers get the really rough end of the pineapple.

Also he stays in 5.2 years not 4, it is unquestionably a balancing act,
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The other cases where someone was out on a bond for an assault and then went and assaulted five people in unprovoked attacks including causing a death? Find me that and the corresponding sentence and I'll eat my words. Saying he was unlikely to reoffend is therefore rubbish. Saying he was of good character and remorseful I'd maybe believe if he turned himself in, but he didn't. His tears an indication of remorse my ass, he's just sorry for himself.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

Find me that and the corresponding sentence and I'll eat my words.

Here is the judgment:

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action...?jgmtid=168126

Paragraphs 74 and 75 set out the comparable cases which were considered by the judge.
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L-A, is this normal?
Not being a very prolific judgement reader, it seems to me to be trying really hard to be as plain speaking and transparent in his reasoning as he possibly can.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst View Post

L-A, is this normal?
Not being a very prolific judgement reader, it seems to me to be trying really hard to be as plain speaking and transparent in his reasoning as he possibly can.

It's not abnormal for a sentencing decision in the Supreme Court - because sentencing is such a complex process, Supreme Court judges want to be as clear as possible so that an appeal on the ground of failure to give adequate reasons is taken out of play. It's not always like that in the Local Court, of course.

Cowdery QC has written a very good piece on the topic:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/thomas...ampaign=Buffer
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