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Israel v Gaza

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Israel v Gaza
http://rt.com/news/gaza-israel-hamas-attack-687/

Gaza is being invaded.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/operation-pillar-of-cloud
Guy in Greenzone for international journalists streaming. They are under attack right now.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hanissalamah
Feed from Central Gaza (all the air raid sirens going off, creepy, do we have air raid sirens here in Australia?)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/bre...-1226517149120
US backs Israel.

http://www.idf.il/1283-17578-en/Dover.aspx

Quote:

IDF Spokesman: all options are on the table, ready to enter Gaza on the ground

Brig. Gen. Yoav (Poly) Moredechai said that "all options are open to cause as much damage as possible to Hamas and other terror organizations"

IDF Spokesman Brgi. Gen. Yoav (Poly) Moredechai said that tonight, "we struck a blow to the command and control of Hamas when we hit Ahmed al-Jabari, head of Hamas' Military Wing in the Gaza Strip, who headed the organization and personally directed and ordered terrorist attacks against Israel. We are opening a broad attack, given the intolerable situation of the residents of the South."

Brig. Gen. Moredechai added that "the Chief of Staff is in the [defended underground war room] and the Air Force continues its surgical strikes. We are in the midst of an attack that will continue and grow. There is no hourglass. We received the green light from the Prime Minister and the Minster of Defense. If I were a senior Hamas activist- I would look for a place to hide."

The IDF Spokesman did not rule out the possibility of a ground invasion and emphasized that all options that exist are on the table. "Infantry brigades have been shifted in preparation for the operation," said the IDF Spokesman. "All options that allow us to cause seriously damage to Hamas and the other terrorist organizations are on the table."

http://pastebin.com/6dYQruHu
Israel cuts off the internet from Gaza in an attempt to stop reporters from reporting.
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Last edited by Kiron: 15-Nov-12 at 02:15pm

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Israel v Gaza
Interested to hear (read) the thoughts of those here well versed in international relations on how this might pan out.

I find it interesting that Israel did this one week after the US presidential elections and wonder if that is more than just coincidence.

I also find this twitter exchange fascinating

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The twitter exchange is rather fascinating

the UN needs a campaign against online bullying it seems

as far as Israel v Gaza round 54958009, the whole conflict has left me tired and emotional
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So this is basically Israel collectively punishing the Palestinian people for planning on asking the UN for statehood right?
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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

http://pastebin.com/6dYQruHu
Israel cuts off the internet from Gaza in an attempt to stop reporters from reporting.

Great so you can't even get in a session of 'Niqab Cumshots' while your home town gets blown to bits.

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This is very interesting.

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Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

So this is basically Israel collectively punishing the Palestinian people for planning on asking the UN for statehood right?

Also vote buying for the upcoming Israeli elections.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

So this is basically Israel collectively punishing the Palestinian people for planning on asking the UN for statehood right?

I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but Hams would do themselves an awful lot of good if they would lay off the whole "fring rockets into Israel" thing. I can't see that there is any possibly advantagous military outconme that can result, or that it is any sense self-dfence - it's just provocation 101. So to the extent that there is collective punishment, maybe the way to end it is for the Palestinians to do a better job at keeping their hotheads under control?
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Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

So to the extent that there is collective punishment, maybe the way to end it is for the Palestinians to do a better job at keeping their hotheads under control?

With Hamas? They are the hotheads.
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Looks like the much vaunted Iron Dome system was something of a rather expensive failure then.

Quote:

Of the 86 rockets that were launched from Gaza into Israel in recent days, only 8 were intercepted by the Iron Dome air defense system.

Prolly doesn't matter when it's on Uncle Sam's Visa card


Timeline of how this latest scrap was started (by Israel)

Quote:

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 8

Following a two-week lull in violence, Israeli soldiers invade Gaza. In the resulting exchange of gunfire with Palestinian fighters, a 12-year-old boy is killed by an Israeli bullet while he plays soccer.

Shortly afterwards, Palestinian fighters blow up a tunnel along the Gaza-Israel frontier, injuring one Israeli soldier.

continued

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Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

So to the extent that there is collective punishment, maybe the way to end it is for the Palestinians to do a better job at keeping their hotheads under control?


Not that I disagree about the rocket lobbing being nothing other than dumbshittery, there have been plenty times when there has been zero rocket fire and it hasn't ended the collective punishment. Israel isn't going to end the siege until the Palestinians either commit suicide or up and leave. Gaza is going to be their torture plaything and weapons testing ground no matter how the locals behave.
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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Israel isn't going to end the siege until the Palestinians either commit suicide or up and leave. Gaza is going to be their torture plaything and weapons testing ground no matter how the locals behave.

bullshit.
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Last edited by trist: 16-Nov-12 at 05:06pm

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I still think its like fighting over werribee or port augusta.

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Israel's gone back to the NRL, so we'll never see this matchup again.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but Hams would do themselves an awful lot of good if they would lay off the whole "fring rockets into Israel" thing. I can't see that there is any possibly advantagous military outconme that can result, or that it is any sense self-dfence - it's just provocation 101. So to the extent that there is collective punishment, maybe the way to end it is for the Palestinians to do a better job at keeping their hotheads under control?

Israel could probably do themselves an awful lot of good if they could stop themselves shooting 13 year olds playing soccer just to give themselves a boost in the polls. Seems like provocation 101 to me too.

Don't get me wrong I think both sides are run by a bunch of arsehats, but the violence has been pretty cynically staged by Israel this time.
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Last edited by Griggle: 16-Nov-12 at 04:52pm

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

Also vote buying for the upcoming Israeli elections.

is that reasonable in this day and age though? sure there are extremist Jewish Israelis who want any Palestinian and any non Jewish wanting to live in Jerusalem [exterminated], but what percentage of the population are they? am I naive to think that MSM only reports on the crazies and it may not be the sentiment of the "normal" Israeli?

Edit: missing word

Last edited by Bracko: 17-Nov-12 at 10:44am

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If they are all for minding their own business and letting Gazans have economic freedom as long as rockets don't come flying over to their apartment complexes then why were they the ones who started up again by shooting a teenager after a two week period of no violence?

And consider what happened last time they bombed the place in 2008.


Chart source - Terrorism Information Center - Tel Aviv

Hamas undertook to stop firing rockets into Israel; in return, Israel was to ease its throttlehold on Gaza. In fact, during the truce, it tightened it further. This was confirmed not only by every neutral international observer and NGO on the scene but by Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, a former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division. In an interview in Ha’aretz on 22 December, he accused Israel’s government of having made a ‘central error’ during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing ‘to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip … When you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,’ General Zakai said, ‘it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.’


Fewer rockets, more economic restriction.


And there are no rockets coming from the West Bank aimed at Israel yet there are still major IDF incursions into Palestinian villages, abductions, shootings, settler riots etc
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bracko View Post

is that reasonable in this day and age though? sure there are extremist Jewish Israelis who want any Palestinian and any non Jewish wanting to live in Jerusalem, but what percentage of the population are they? am I naive to think that MSM only reports on the crazies and it may not be the sentiment of the "normal" Israeli?

From my experience, Israeli's are hugely xenophobic and to a point racist, this is a country where anyone who isn't Jewish are treated as second class citizens, where an Arab can go to jail for having consensual sex with a Jew, where Africans are put into concentration camps, where people who have had their land stolen from them illegally, put into a huge walled city that is constantly bombed, often using chemical warfare.

I've met Jews who have never been to Israel that are fiercely pro-Israel and somehow nationalistic for a country they have never been too. If you look at any Israeli media as well, it is so far-right that it makes our News Corp crap look centre. They are fed bigoted, racist, far right propaganda from birth, from all sides. This is a country where something like 85% of the people supported Romney in the US elections.

It's a sad state, but it seems to be the case that in the middle east, most countries are run by authoritarian, bigoted, dickheads that feed their population crap.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but Hams would do themselves an awful lot of good if they would lay off the whole "fring rockets into Israel" thing. I can't see that there is any possibly advantagous military outconme that can result, or that it is any sense self-dfence - it's just provocation 101. So to the extent that there is collective punishment, maybe the way to end it is for the Palestinians to do a better job at keeping their hotheads under control?

Have you seen their charter?

Quote:

Chapter 13 - There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.

Chapter 15 - I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill.

Israel arent cleanskins in this, far from it. But the current situation is being brought on by Hamas, they do not care about their people, they are trying to martyr them by trying to provoke Israel to react violently to stir up even more anger and anti-israel sentiment in their people and are hoping to illicit a war with other muslim powers in the region.

Who could possibly think that electing a terrorist organization into the PA government would result in peace and mungbeans?
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I'm not so sure Hamas today is the Hamas of the past. Considering they seem to be pushing for two state solution and adhered to the ceasefire.

The American Government also started off as a Terrorist Organization.
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Plus Hamas aren't the PLO (the recognised state actor for Palestine , i think??), while they might be listed as a member of the PLO on the PLO website, I always thought that the PLO in general condemned the attacks of Hamas (whenever they occured).

The PLO is so fractured and fucked up anyway, I think it was the Oslo Accords that basically split it into two anyway (well two more divisions, from the already numerous), and now this is going to further divide it.

Also, who is backing who these days ? (Iraq - Palestine, US- Israel?) That region is very confusing. I would hate to live there.
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Sadly, this cycle of violence will result in the usual bluster from both administrations, hollow words from the UN, EU and US and more meaningless deaths on both sides. For any progress to occur, one or both sides needs to to take a leap into the unknown and actually hold fire when attacked.

Unfortunately, both administrations are only too eager to reach for the rifle or rocket, keen to pander to segments of the population that demand instant retribution.

What always baffles me in all of this, is that modern day Israel was formed following a systematic and calculated attempt to wipe Jews off the map. Something that some Israelis appear only too happy to repeat when it comes to Palestinians. For people who looked down the barrel of extermination themselves, the continuing intransigence when it comes to working towards a peaceful solution is breathtaking in a historical context.

To isolate and weaken the lunatic fringe of Hamas, Israel would surely be better served by taking the moral high ground and holding off military action, until it becomes a last resort. Backing an isolated Hamas into a corner and strangling its 'legitimacy' in firing rockets at Tel Aviv would surely be in the best interests of the region as a whole.

Fat fucking chance of that, though.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by weekender View Post

Sadly, this cycle of violence will result in the usual bluster from both administrations, hollow words from the UN, EU and US and more meaningless deaths on both sides. For any progress to occur, one or both sides needs to to take a leap into the unknown and actually hold fire when attacked.

Unfortunately, both administrations are only too eager to reach for the rifle or rocket, keen to pander to segments of the population that demand instant retribution.

What always baffles me in all of this, is that modern day Israel was formed following a systematic and calculated attempt to wipe Jews off the map. Something that some Israelis appear only too happy to repeat when it comes to Palestinians. For people who looked down the barrel of extermination themselves, the continuing intransigence when it comes to working towards a peaceful solution is breathtaking in a historical context.

To isolate and weaken the lunatic fringe of Hamas, Israel would surely be better served by taking the moral high ground and holding off military action, until it becomes a last resort. Backing an isolated Hamas into a corner and strangling its 'legitimacy' in firing rockets at Tel Aviv would surely be in the best interests of the region as a whole.

Fat fucking chance of that, though.

You're right about the Israeli's displaying a breathtaking disregard for their own history! It's like when you meet an aborigine who's homophobic, it's like...erm...surely you should understand how awful it is to be hated for something you can't control??

If the Israeli government doesn't retaliate then they'll get destroyed in the polls, the Israelis are strongly right wing and believe in the need for a strong response.

It's the typical situation of the former weakling who was bullied at school becoming friends with the toughest kid in school and using that to be a complete arse to everyone.

Except that in this situation the weakling is armed with nuclear weapons.

Imagine if England bombed Belfast every time the IRA set a bomb off!
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Originally Posted by pEAkeR_hAT View Post

Plus Hamas aren't the PLO (the recognised state actor for Palestine , i think??),

Nah, Hamas won the election. It's just the USA and Israel who are pretending that election never happened.
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Hamas control the Gaza Strip not the West Bank.

I think to understand this it helps to recognise this is about Zionism and also that Hamas has expressed the view that it believes hardcore Israeli zionists want to extend Israel from the Euphrates to the Nile. Israeli zionist hardliners do not trust Palestinians either. Some key Palestinians would like there to be no Israel. So although the two country solution is (apparently) favoured by most Israelis and Palestinians the lack of trust and deep seated zionist and anti-zionist views at the top dominate action.

Also, water is very scarce and water resource ownership is spread across the boundaries.
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Also, water is very scarce and water resource ownership is spread across the boundaries.

Indeed. Twas the subject of my dissertation waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 1994.

Looks like Abbas is getting in the neck from the Palestinians on the West Bank.
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Indeed. Twas the subject of my dissertation waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 1994.

Looks like Abbas is getting in the neck from the Palestinians on the West Bank.

Oh right, interesting subject!

Yes if Abbas goes it will be full on.
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Originally Posted by weekender View Post

What always baffles me in all of this, is that modern day Israel was formed following a systematic and calculated attempt to wipe Jews off the map. Something that some Israelis appear only too happy to repeat when it comes to Palestinians. For people who looked down the barrel of extermination themselves, the continuing intransigence when it comes to working towards a peaceful solution is breathtaking in a historical context.

It seems to have hardened their resolve and pushed them collectively to the right. I suppose if you try hard enough you can draw some similarities between Gaza and the jewish ghettos established by the Nazi’s before the final solution, but really you can’t say they are trying to repeat the holocaust on Palestinians. That is just crazy talk.

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To isolate and weaken the lunatic fringe of Hamas, Israel would surely be better served by taking the moral high ground and holding off military action, until it becomes a last resort. Backing an isolated Hamas into a corner and strangling its 'legitimacy' in firing rockets at Tel Aviv would surely be in the best interests of the region as a whole.

Fat fucking chance of that, though.

Lunatic fringe of Hamas? Hamas are the lunatics. Some may be more lunatic-y than others but they are all in the same ideological asylum.
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It seems to have hardened their resolve and pushed them collectively to the right. I suppose if you try hard enough you can draw some similarities between Gaza and the jewish ghettos established by the Nazi’s before the final solution, but really you can’t say they are trying to repeat the holocaust on Palestinians. That is just crazy talk.

The Nazi's didn't start off killing the Jews, they tried to force them out of their country and tried to ship them off elsewhere in the world. Much of the reason Israel exists is because of White Guilt due to the fact that pretty much every western country told the Jews to fuck off back to Germany. If memory serves me correctly, It was Madagascar that Hitler originally wanted to be where the Jews were all sent to live. Eventually Hitler just gave the order to the SS to get rid of them and the SS did what it knew best, killing people and thus we got the Final Solution.

The Israeli's are doing the same thing with the Palestinians, they are trying to make their life so bad they will fuck off to other countries as refugees and again, no other country wants them. I suspect when Israel gets bored of putting up with the Palestinians we will see a Final Solution of sorts.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by weekender View Post


What always baffles me in all of this, is that modern day Israel was formed following a systematic and calculated attempt to wipe Jews off the map. Something that some Israelis appear only too happy to repeat when it comes to Palestinians. For people who looked down the barrel of extermination themselves, the continuing intransigence when it comes to working towards a peaceful solution is breathtaking in a historical context.

My guess (and it's only a guess to be sure) is that Jews see in organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah the instincts of Nazism and, in so seeing, they want to be proactive against the putative urge of their self-anointed destroyers. This leads Israelis to be permanently paranoid about their perceived imminent destruction and so allows them to rationalise completely disproportionate responses against acts of aggression.

Chuck in a fair amount of racist propaganda and you have this recipe for eternal conflict all of us have witnessed over the entirety of our lives.

It's hard to really imagine what the perpetuation of the collectively scarred psyches that both peoples have had imprinted by successive generations of violence must feel like. It leaves them both deformed in a psychological respect and doesn't bode well for a solution that ends in anything other than grotesque brutality.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

The Nazi's didn't start off killing the Jews, they tried to force them out of their country and tried to ship them off elsewhere in the world. Much of the reason Israel exists is because of White Guilt due to the fact that pretty much every western country told the Jews to fuck off back to Germany. If memory serves me correctly, It was Madagascar that Hitler originally wanted to be where the Jews were all sent to live. Eventually Hitler just gave the order to the SS to get rid of them and the SS did what it knew best, killing people and thus we got the Final Solution.

The Israeli's are doing the same thing with the Palestinians, they are trying to make their life so bad they will fuck off to other countries as refugees and again, no other country wants them. I suspect when Israel gets bored of putting up with the Palestinians we will see a Final Solution of sorts.

^ dude, you really don't need to give me a history lesson on Nazi Germany. And as a side note, Madagascar was more pie-in-the-sky stuff than any realistic outcome to the jewish question.

And your second paragraph is looney toons crazy.
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I still think its like fighting over werribee or port augusta.

Why Allah?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

My guess (and it's only a guess to be sure) is that Jews see in organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah the instincts of Nazism and, in so seeing, they want to be proactive against the putative urge of their self-anointed destroyers. This leads Israelis to be permanently paranoid about their perceived imminent destruction and so allows them to rationalise completely disproportionate responses against acts of aggression.

Chuck in a fair amount of racist propaganda and you have this recipe for eternal conflict all of us have witnessed over the entirety of our lives.

It's hard to really imagine what the perpetuation of the collectively scarred psyches that both peoples have had imprinted by successive generations of violence must feel like. It leaves them both deformed in a psychological respect and doesn't bode well for a solution that ends in anything other than grotesque brutality.

on the money Geez. Great post.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post


And your second paragraph is looney toons crazy.

No it's not.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

My guess (and it's only a guess to be sure) is that Jews see in organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah the instincts of Nazism and, in so seeing, they want to be proactive against the putative urge of their self-anointed destroyers. This leads Israelis to be permanently paranoid about their perceived imminent destruction and so allows them to rationalise completely disproportionate responses against acts of aggression.

Chuck in a fair amount of racist propaganda and you have this recipe for eternal conflict all of us have witnessed over the entirety of our lives.

It's hard to really imagine what the perpetuation of the collectively scarred psyches that both peoples have had imprinted by successive generations of violence must feel like. It leaves them both deformed in a psychological respect and doesn't bode well for a solution that ends in anything other than grotesque brutality.

Possibly, but Zionism is a very old idea that many ideological Jews hold as a religious tenet. It's an idea that goes way back. In addition, my understanding is the majority of Israelis support the two country solution. The actions we are seeing are not simply the actions of scarred Jews they are the actions of committed Zionists. And the actions of Hamas are the actions of people who want to destroy Israel.
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interesting article about how Israel is scoring an own goal here

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...atal-game.html
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I liked this article, Fisk is, in my opinion, a pretty good writer

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...o-8327133.html
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and, as expected, znet is in uproar

http://www.zcommunications.org/recent
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Israeli's are probably the most annoying, arrogant and sheltered people i've ever come across. i'd probably be hurling rockets at them too if they stole my land.
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stole your land, blew up your airport, stopped your exports, stopped your friends from visiting, starved your people and turned you into the world's biggest prison
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

and, as expected, znet is in uproar

http://www.zcommunications.org/recent

http://www.zcommunications.org/who-i...by-hilary-aked

^^ interesting. The BBC is really losing it's impartial status these days, very sad to see as it was once a great institution.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

stole your land, blew up your airport, stopped your exports, stopped your friends from visiting, starved your people and turned you into the world's biggest prison

indeed.

Legal Affairs - i think provocation is stated above
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

stole your land, blew up your airport, stopped your exports, stopped your friends from visiting, starved your people and turned you into the world's biggest prison

Palestinians arent exactly the nicest group of folks either. Homosexuals and apostates reportedly escape from Palestine and sneak into Israel to flee persecution. btw; You'd think with so many of their people allegedly starving their government couldnt afford to buy so many hundreds of rockets....oh wait!

Neither side are worthy of our support imo, except maybe the atheists caught in the middle don't want a bar of it.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 19-Nov-12 at 06:27pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

The Israeli's are doing the same thing with the Palestinians, they are trying to make their life so bad they will fuck off to other countries as refugees and again, no other country wants them. I suspect when Israel gets bored of putting up with the Palestinians we will see a Final Solution of sorts.

I'm not so sure to be honest. How much is Israel dependent on the US financiallya well as politically? From what I've read while direct aid is a huge sum there the indirect aid dwarfs it. Eventually i see the middle east rising against Israel.

General question, where do China stand on this?
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China has spoken against Israeli actions.

If the middle east rises against Israel, what then of its nuclear capability?
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China also buys billions of dollars worth of high-tech military hardware from Israel. Specifically hardware that Russia and the US refuse to sell to them, so their criticism will never be more than mere lipservice to keep their allies in the arab world quiet.
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following IDFspokesperson on Twitter has been extremely interesting/amusing recently

obviously it goes without saying that it's a propaganda exercise, but I wonder how butthurt they get when everything they write is responded to with a picture of a dead Palestinian child.

stupid social media and its two way interaction
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

So this is basically Israel collectively punishing the Palestinian people for planning on asking the UN for statehood right?

Not really, the Palestinians are being killed, dispossessed and ethnically cleansed simply because the chosen ones, believe that Palestine and surrounding lands belong to them because their God said so.

Everything else is just a distraction.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dig72 View Post

Not really, the Palestinians are being killed, dispossessed and ethnically cleansed simply because the chosen ones, believe that Palestine and surrounding lands belong to them because their God said so.

Everything else is just a distraction.

Israel sure are doing a shitty job of ethnic cleansing considering Gaza has the 3rd highest fertility rate in in the world outside of Africa and has a high annual population growth rate of 3.4%. You would think they could apply their firsthand knowledge of genocide with gusto wouldn't you?
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