I was at quite a large party on the weekend, where the DJ (who I shall call "DJ") was doing their biggest gig to date, and closing the room at that. Needless to say, a very exciting and valuable thing to have on the CV.

The set went for a very successful 3 hours, and then *click* all sound disappeared, apart from the monitors. Half an hour from the set's conclusion. This was very disappointing for DJ, as they were looking forward to the planned finale. There was a second set of decks on stage, and the sound guys directed DJ here with the intention of connecting that setup to the PA. This wasn't successful, and the night came to an end.

I went over and had a look at the original setup... DJM600. I asked DJ if it was running into the red, DJ said yes, but the sound guys had said not to worry. DJ is not a tech expert, but with "professionals" giving the ok you shouldn't have to be.

Initially I thought the mixer had died, but the booth output was still operating so I don't know if that's the case. When they couldn't get the other decks going, I thought maybe the DJM-squarewave had taken amps out. But surely not the whole system?!


Q1. Any suggestions as to what might have happened here?

Q2. Am I wrong to be annoyed at a staging company who allows the use of a mixer that is already banned in some major Sydney clubs due to it's PA-killing potential?

the Squaremaster 4000 strikes again.

^ That answers part of my first question. But how does it take out a whole PA system in one go?

couldn't tell ya without inspecting. it quite possibly could have taken out the pre stages in the amps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunkdust

couldn't tell ya without inspecting. it quite possibly could have taken out the pre stages in the amps.

More than likely the processing before the amp

In any case, the world needs to be rid of all DJMxxx DJ mixers aka The SquareMaster series.

Take an axe to your nearest one now!

as i said, can't tell without inspection.

I know you can only guess going from my description, but what single piece of equipment might have the entire signal running through it apart from the mixing desk? I don't know heaps about big PA setups, but I would assume there would be multiple compressors, EQs etc which would have to fail simultaneously to completely quieten things.

management, processing, and amps, pretty much.

rocked up to TT on the weekend....

slowly made my way up front for the DJ before prodigy.....

look up to the dex.... see something i don't believe, pull out camera, zoom in to check it....

there, sitting between 2 decks and 2 pioneer CDJ1000's is a.... DJM 600

i thought promoters learnt this the hard way....

the sound up the front was totally fucked, you could hear the sound guys adjusting it all night.

It's so hard to fathom. Our night was cut 30 minutes short, after over 10 hours of music. Imagine if it had happened early - it would have been devastating.

I think I'll just take T-Tech's advice and carry an axe at all times.

Just be careful Gruso, even armed with an axe you don't want to stay too close to a DJM600 for too long. It is well known that the square wave generating sound can cause sperm to mutate, which in turn can lead to birth defects in offspring.

I personally bathe in kerosene after using one, just to cleanse the skin from any airborne square wave particles that have get trapped in the hair of my arms or legs. (The particles are attracted to hair follicles via a special DNA homing virus) Taking vitamin E before and after a gig is also popular, but really, the bottom line is that these mixers are not safe. If you value your health just put on your level4 hazard suit, axe the bastard from outside a one metre radius, and organise a sing-a-long.

kumbaya my lord


kumbayaaaaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Just be careful Gruso, even armed with an axe you don't want to stay too close to a DJM600 for too long. It is well known that the square wave generating sound can cause sperm to mutate, which in turn can lead to birth defects in offspring.

I personally bathe in kerosene after using one, just to cleanse the skin from any airborne square wave particles that have get trapped in the hair of my arms or legs. (The particles are attracted to hair follicles via a special DNA homing virus) Taking vitamin E before and after a gig is also popular, but really, the bottom line is that these mixers are not safe. If you value your health just put on your level4 hazard suit, axe the bastard from outside a one metre radius, and organise a sing-a-long.

your name is not howard is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruso

I know you can only guess going from my description, but what single piece of equipment might have the entire signal running through it apart from the mixing desk? I don't know heaps about big PA setups, but I would assume there would be multiple compressors, EQs etc which would have to fail simultaneously to completely quieten things.

Other way around, most of that stuff will be operating in series. Then again a decent sound engineer will be able to find the fault just by looking at the rack, and then do a quick overpatch of the damaged unit.

I Have A Djm 300 At Home For Mixing And Dont Know To Much About Them And I At Risk Of Blowing Speakers???

^ I don't know if DJM300s are as volatile. Just make sure your levels stay out of the red. Good advice for using any mixer really.

lol... doin't type in caps clayto, it makes you look a tad silly .

the problems arise when you push the mixer too hard... don't turn the volume up too much, and if you want the music louder, turn up the volums of all the steps (gain, master out, amp/speaker) not just crank say... the gain.

tHANKS fOR yOUR hELP. I didnt mean to write in caps...... before.

was this ur sisters gig gruso?


I'm always careful now with the DJM600 now i know how fucked it can be.

It can be so hard on a shitty system to keep it out of the red because people are telling u to turn the volume up and everything is starting to go into the red


i actually played a gig once where the sound dude came up to me and said "Oh wow a DJ that actually knows not to push it into the red"

I thought it went without saying to keep it out of the red!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juggalo Muli

was this ur sisters gig gruso?

Yep. She handled it with a smile... thousands wouldn't!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juggalo Muli

i actually played a gig once where the sound dude came up to me and said "Oh wow a DJ that actually knows not to push it into the red"

yeah, i heard you like to keep it in the brown

Milk Crate Kid: nope my name is not Howard

Clayto: no, you're not at any risk. I used a DJM300 for a couple of years connected to a powerful sound system and had no issues with it. The basic principle of not overdriving your equipment applies. Keep the channel trims at around 10:30 o-clock, and the master volume set at maybe 12. For the best sound quality - keep an eye on the levels and don't stray too much into the red. I found one or two red led flickers on each kick to be fine.

was in a club here in the 'berra on the weekend, there was a 600 with all the gains and the master 'troughing' at the first or second red. Yes - the lowest it ever got was the first red! I can't understand how club owners/PA techs allow this shit to happen... Any DJ doing that would be out of the club immediately.

I have a 600, and am keen to find out how to not blow stuff up with it, apart from throwing it away. Is there a link to some info on this squarewave problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bracko

yeah, i heard you like to keep it in the brown

don't knock it till u try it...

on a female connection of course... :tripping:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marky

was in a club here in the 'berra on the weekend, there was a 600 with all the gains and the master 'troughing' at the first or second red. Yes - the lowest it ever got was the first red! I can't understand how club owners/PA techs allow this shit to happen... Any DJ doing that would be out of the club immediately.

I have a 600, and am keen to find out how to not blow stuff up with it, apart from throwing it away. Is there a link to some info on this squarewave problem?

Yeah: www.inthemix.com.au/forum

Marky, there is no risk of you blowing anything up. But, if you believe the hype and didn't trust yourself, there is a little black master gain pot on the back of the mixer which you can turn down.

That and daily kerosene baths.

leave the poor 600 alone
its an aussie battler

Yeah, like Shane & Bindy Paxton.

Kerosene ordered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruso

The set went for a very successful 3 hours, and then *click* all sound disappeared, apart from the monitors.

Were the monitors run off the demon child pioneer mixer? if everything else turned off except something else running off the mixer, maybe the compressor or amps blew up, not the mixer. 600 has a gain knob on the back, most dj's don't know it's there, most prodcution staff should, and turn the gain down so even at full noise the mixer isn't huffing and puffing hard enough to blow the system down. Red means clipping, dickheads. playing in the red means you're clipping into the amp and no amount of trimming will get rid of the distortion. simple answer, stay out of the red, cocksmack.

this message proudly presented by peoplewhohatethemostofthedjs.com

ps. probably a humidity issue. Cairns is much more humaid than everywhere down south, and since nearly all the clubs here run (or want to run) a 600 and none of them have blown up a sound system in the 6 odd years I've seen them getting used every weekend., i'd say make the venues down south more humid, or plant more coconuit palms. maybe that'll fix it.

Gawd get over it you Pioneer haters ! .. Yes they shouldnt be used on big systems , but all this talk of blowing systems has all the n00bs running around tearing their hair out thinking their top notch $250 Akai home Hi-Fi is going to spontaneously combust if they see a glint of red flash on their 600's ...

I have a DJM 600 , I have a $700 sound system .. We also use a DJM500 every weekend , Friday and Saturdays on a local club sound system .. Nothing massive but far bigger than my room (obviously) .. never had a problem ..EVER .. maybe if i was monitoring the sound with equipment , as to display sound curvature then i would notice .. but to the human ear nothing ! ...

Yes i agree with whats been said , but when a fuckin newb comes up to me and turns his nose up at my 600 , because of what he read on the ITM forums and tries VERY badly to explain to me why the DJM600 is shithouse, becauase of how it blows systems on $50,000+ systems , and why its a piece of junk .... I get annoyed !! .. Mind you , this **** owns a 2 channel Gemini mixer , and 2 belt driven turn tables he bougth for $400 ... the lot ..



DJM @ Two Tribes = Bad
DJM @ Home or Small Club = Fuckin FINE !

Quote:

Originally Posted by N4TE

Were the monitors run off the demon child pioneer mixer? if everything else turned off except something else running off the mixer, maybe the compressor or amps blew up, not the mixer.

Welcome to the new millenium, but single unit compressors went out a long time ago.

You have single unit audio dsp's for loudspeaker management that run entire systems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViRaL

......but when a fuckin newb comes up to me and turns his nose up at my 600 , because of what he read on the ITM forums and tries VERY badly to explain to me why the DJM600 is shithouse, .... !

that's what I'm striving for

ViRal: DJM600s are an extremely DJ friendly mixer, and I've enjoyed using one plenty of times myself. They may be fine in the right situation, and in the right hands, but it can be hard to control those conditions. Their reputation has obviously come about for good reasons. (For the record, they definitely shouldn't have been using them at this event).

N4TE: Try not to hate DJs, they do play a small but important role in the dance music industry. I understand your frustration, but people don't know unless they're taught - and the best place to learn audio theory is not a noisy nightclub. DJs are taught as much about sound systems as our drivers are about cars.

DJM600 shouldn't be used ANYWHERE.

Need I retell the story of the day at a place I used to work (lets just call it... Someone's Sounds and Lights) when we were testing out a Funktion One rig...

Hooked the fucker up with a CD player into a DJM600. Sounded undefined and definately low fi, couldn't figure out why the fuck this tens of thousands of British PA hardware was producing a crap sound?

Anyway, out of interest, swapped the $1500 Pioneer out for a $500 Numark DXM06 and there it was... Full glorious Funktion One sound. It was the Squaremaster taking all the life out of the sound.

I never really believed it was all the fault of DJM600's in shitty club sound (more the fault of cheap plastic EV bins and little or no sound absorption) but I could not believe my ears when I heard the difference between the DJM and the Numark. Absolutely astounding.

I've been told that it was the FOH console that threw the towel in, but I didn't find out why.

I was also reminded of one great thing about that moment - when it was clear that the sound wasn't coming back in a hurry, DJ turned the monitors around to face the crowd, who responded with a cheer and kept dancing.

The show must go on!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunkdust

I never really believed it was all the fault of DJM600's in shitty club sound (more the fault of cheap plastic EV bins and little or no sound absorption) but I could not believe my ears when I heard the difference between the DJM and the Numark. Absolutely astounding.

I've had the same reaction from club owners/managers when changing from DJMxxx to say an Allen&Heath or Rane. They think you have done some major changes to the sound system when all I have done is replace the mixer.

Shit in -> Shit out.

Not only does the DJMxxx series mixers have an abundance of level over and above the norm, square waves like a mofo, but it has poor quality (shit sounding) RIAA phono preamps and cheap shit OP amps in the preamp stage which account for its square master nature.

I'm taking notes here, so Viral doesn't call me a n00b when I say DJM's are shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurntableTech

Welcome to the new millenium, but single unit compressors went out a long time ago.

You have single unit audio dsp's for loudspeaker management that run entire systems.

Yeah, for the low end stuff mabey. For decent sized setups you'll still run one or two seperate compressors in line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruso

I was also reminded of one great thing about that moment - when it was clear that the sound wasn't coming back in a hurry, DJ turned the monitors around to face the crowd, who responded with a cheer and kept dancing.

I've seen that happen twice before, its very funny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruso

I'm taking notes here, so Viral doesn't call me a n00b when I say DJM's are shit.

hah .. apologies guys .. I had a VERY bad day yesterday ...didnt mean to blow up .. soz ..

Yea as i was saying ... fruckin n00bs .... I have no problem with someone telling me whats what , when they KNOW what their talking about ... but a n00b who i simply trying to recite whats been said previously pisses me off ...

Agreed , the 600's shouldnt be used in most club environments ... apart from small clubs .. which there is no issue ... But im not arguing that, im simply saying its a very good home mixer ... If i ran my own club , and had a quality system , id be reaching for the A&H my self .. I was about an inch away from buying a Xone 62 before i bought the 600 .. but the extra $800 would have killed me ..

Bom mixer though ... oh well next time ,,,,



But yea ... its funny thinking that an event housing 10,000 people is using pretty much the same setup as i have in my bedroom .. bar the system obviously .. ie .. 2 x 1200's , 1 x CDJ1000 , 1 x DJM600

But lets not blame the DJM-600 for everything! At the end of the day, its the DJ who runs the system in the red. This is where the problem really is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurntableTech

Not only does the DJMxxx series mixers have an abundance of level over and above the norm, square waves like a mofo, but it has poor quality (shit sounding) RIAA phono preamps and cheap shit OP amps in the preamp stage which account for its square master nature.

at Ben Sims at Bohem the other week the were running a XONE:92, this sounded awesome.

then Ben Sims requested a DJM-3000 for some reason the sound turned to instant shit.

What can you do when the amp is turned way down early in the night, but the management get too busy or whatever to turn it up later on when the place is full?

I know running it right into the red is gonna make it sound more distorted, not louder. But so many DJs don't know that (they farken should)...

The volume master control at back of djm600 is cool for limiting the level (over-ride the master out, essentially), but if the management won't open up the amp a little (when there is plenty room to) to the point that some noob DJ cranks that level override themself to get more volume - that's when things go pop-fizz.

I often try and ask that the system be opened up a bit, reassuring the sound engineer that I am a yellow-line rider, clipping the 1st red occasioanlly. But not all DJs are that responsible, so we have to put up with crap compressed sound cos of incompetencies of others!

Again, how do DJs know about this danger if they're not taught? It might seem obvious that red = bad, but most people expect to hear when something is going wrong.

I can't really see a solution to this... I know there are a percentage of idiot DJs around, but lack of education doesn't warrant being all DJs being badmouthed. Instead, we should be removing the more dangerous toys from the picture! You wouldn't put a P-plater in a monster truck and then complain because they drove over your BMW.

Gruso, Something simple I've taken to doing is to write on a piece of tape "more than 3 in the red is bad, turn it down or I'll kick you off" and sticking it on the mixer. Also fixing the master volume with tape, and only allowing myself to touch the amp.....

Sound guys are easily intimidated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marky

What can you do when the amp is turned way down early in the night, but the management get too busy or whatever to turn it up later on when the place is full?

This is where being able to communicate comes in handy. Also, sometimes you have to take your licks.... basically playing on a bit quiter, copping that shit until the management goes "hang on its a bit quiet". most good management will have an ear out... its only the lazy egotistical venue owners who claim to be "too busy to handle that shit".

there should ALWAYS be a system of delegation also..... get to know the manager of the venue you are booked to play and ASK HIM OR HER WHO TO SPEAK TO REGARDING THESE ISSUES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marky

I know running it right into the red is gonna make it sound more distorted, not louder. But so many DJs don't know that (they farken should)...

The volume master control at back of djm600 is cool for limiting the level (over-ride the master out, essentially), but if the management won't open up the amp a little (when there is plenty room to) to the point that some noob DJ cranks that level override themself to get more volume - that's when things go pop-fizz.

I often try and ask that the system be opened up a bit, reassuring the sound engineer that I am a yellow-line rider, clipping the 1st red occasioanlly. But not all DJs are that responsible, so we have to put up with crap compressed sound cos of incompetencies of others!

sounds good marky. i like your approach. a bit of face time with the engineer and any level of the hierarchy is a good thing. your reputation is important also, hence why i think its better to cop a bit of shit if the system is quiet and then have it fixed, rather then bust into the red, sound like shit and have word spread that youre just another "kid dj" who doesnt understand unity gain.


or you can be a prick like a certain friend on the weekend

Quote:

Originally Posted by mungo

Yeah, for the low end stuff mabey. For decent sized setups you'll still run one or two seperate compressors in line.

I'm not sure whether it's age or size (how big is big?) but most of the places i play at run seperate lines for mid & high than they do for bass.

I love the Allen & Heath gear ... knobs are a little small but i still want them to have my children.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bracko

I'm not sure whether it's age or size (how big is big?) but most of the places i play at run seperate lines for mid & high than they do for bass.

Yes, out of some form of digital audio DSP's. They perform all compression, limiting, graphic EQ, parametric EQ, delay, crossover, routing, level and more in the one unit and do a better job than an analogue unit. Great thing is security features and the fact you usually need laptop and software GUI to make any changes or to do a system configuration. It's like having a van load of virtually unlimited audio processing gear in a single box.

Popular units include

PEAVEY MEDIAMATRIX X-Frame, MiniFrame & MainFrame
http://mm.peavey.com/home.cfm

PEAVEY ARCHITECTURAL ACOUSTICS DigitoolMX
http://aa.peavey.com/signalprocessors/digitoolmx.cfm

RANE DragNet
http://www.rane.com/procat.html#dragnet

ALLEN&HEATH iDR
http://www.idrseries.com/

DBX Driverack
http://www.driverack.com/

BSS MiniDrive, OmniDrive, ProSys and SoundWeb
http://www.bssaudio.co.uk/

SYMETRIX SymNET
http://www.symnetaudio.com/index.php

CROWN AUDIO IQ
http://www.iqaudiosystems.com/

KLARK-TEKNIK DN9848
http://klark-teknik.com/specifications/dn9848_tech.htm

If a club uses separate eq, crossover, compressor/limiters etc than its either antique or cheap. But then there are audio dsp units now that rival separate units in terms of both price and most definately performance.

Tank Nightclub runs on Crown IQ's

Cave Nightclub uses Rane 2 x RPM26 in main room and DBX Driverack in the smaller room

Wallaby Bar, Cargo Bar, Loft, Bungalow8, Establishment uses MediaMatrix

Slip Inn uses Symetrix SymNET and DBX Driverack.

Suzi Q's use DigitoolMX

Hotel Chambers uses SymNET & Klark-Teknik

Audio DSP's are far more flexible and sound much better than they're analogue counterparts. Drag'n'drop audio is the way of the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mungo

Yeah, for the low end stuff mabey. For decent sized setups you'll still run one or two seperate compressors in line.

You can have as many as you want depending on your in's and outs of the DSP units.

Go have a play with the software and actually have a look what you can do