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Drum and Percussion Production Thread
Hi everyone, searched for previous threads, saw they were pretty old so hope ok to start this one...

Noticing a lot of random drum-related tips and tricks floating through the threads, thought it might be helpful to post things here for everyone to find.

Any questions related to producing, programming, playing, mixing drums and percussion in your tracks welcome.

Any tips you want to pass on most welcome!

Monday I'll post an article I wrote for school on how drummers play, and how to use this info to program more realistic patterns, like a real player would do it. I'll regularly add more tips as I have time.

Relevant posts elsewhere could be linked or moved here too I spose!

To start: http://www.inthemix.com.au/forum/sho...6&postcount=71

RB
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You Rock

Looking forward to this.
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G'work RobbieBell. You're the champ.

MP+T and it's return to form is underway!
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i have a pdf on that too, not sure if i should post it due to copyright.
its a manual teaching you how to play drum machines like a real drummer
ill find out its name and author and post it so people can track that down too

(not that i am saying yours aint worthy rob!! )
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"DRUM PROGRAMMING: A Complete Guide To Program and Think Like A Drummer

by Ray F Badness (love the surname!!)
Foreword by Mark Simon"..


Is that the one lukey?!
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rhythmboy +

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Cheers fellas hope it becomes a good one.

Quickie for tonight for noobs to MIDI and drum sequencing:

MIDI DRUMS VS AUDIO SAMPLES - TIMING ISSUES

Note - skip to the end if you know a lot about MIDI already...

MIDI is a serial transmission language, meaning that whilst your synth or d/m may be able to play many notes polyphony, MIDI itself can only transmit one note at a time, albeit so quickly we may not hear the difference. In many sounds a delay of a few milliseconds is unnoticeable. Also, MIDI has a relatively slow transmission speed between devices. Finally, the maximum quantisation resolution of MIDI timing is 1/960th of a quarter note. Add all these things together and MIDI has certain, although very slight, timing limitations.

It can impact on drum and percussion sequences quite noticeably at times due to fast attacks and short transients - a slight 'smearing' of the note attacks occurs. This gets worse as we use more polyphony from the same sound source - the busier and fuller your pattern, the worse the timing can get. Some sounds may go slightly out of phase as well, not enough to cancel completely, but enough to affect the full tonailty of each sample and make the output appear less clear and distinct.

When using audio tracks, the timing resolution is often one sample, ie at least 1/44100th of a second. This is much finer than MIDI resolution. Also audio tracks are multiplexed and phase aligned when internally mixed, so the timing of each track is very tightly locked to the clock of the sound card. The end result is that for a given pattern, it is likely to sound tighter if it was made from samples aligned to an audio grid than played from a drum machine.

The solution? If using a drum machine or external sound module, try soloing each part and recording it down to an audio track in your HD recording application. Record each part separately. Then zoom right in on the start of each track and notice if the notes are late/behind the grid line - it is likely they are by a few milliseconds. If so, trim the start of each one and align so the first note is right against the grid. Immediately the patterns should sound tighter and fuller.

My Octapad incurs a delay of about 6-10 msecs when I trigger it with sequences and record the audio back into Pro Tools (better than some sound card latency specs tho!). If I record live audio and MIDI notes at the same time from it, the audio is always noticeably earlier than the MIDI, so trimming and nudging tracks after a pass is a standard part of my editing routine. It takes some time, but makes a world of difference.

Note the above issues are quite different to those related to sample buffers and latency when playing virtual instruments from external MIDI triggers. That's another topic!

RB
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmboy

My Octapad incurs a delay of about 6-10 msecs when I trigger it with sequences and record the audio back into Pro Tools (better than some sound card latency specs tho!).

What MIDI interface are you running?

I have a AMT8, and would sell it in a heartbeat if I could be 100% sure Digi's own MIDI IO was spot on (with its timestamping).


Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmboy

If I record live audio and MIDI notes at the same time from it, the audio is always noticeably earlier than the MIDI, so trimming and nudging tracks after a pass is a standard part of my editing routine. It takes some time, but makes a world of difference.

Yep, trimming'n'nudging... it's times like this that I kinda wish my studio was 'in the box'.
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good thread.

post your article on drum machines.

im really interested in getting sample based music to sound "groovey" and injecting it with the feel of live music.
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there is another great article http://www.alandmoore.com/ramblings/...TheoryOfDP.htm

and if that doesnt work try here http://www.alandmoore.com/ramblings/TheoryOfDP.htm

I have another printout somewhere about analog drum synthesis which could be of use. ill see if i can find it.
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Last edited by keyring: 26-Mar-07 at 10:18pm

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^^^ cheers man will check it out tonite
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Quote:

Originally Posted by keyring

there is another great artilce http://www.alandmoore.com/ramblings/...TheoryOfDP.htm

and if that doesnt work try here http://www.alandmoore.com/ramblings/TheoryOfDP.htm

I have another printout somewhere about analog drum synthesis which could be of use. ill see if i can find it.

Excellent finds mate, highly recommend people read these for a comphrehensive overview.

Also for introductory stuff, try these:

Link for a basic introduction to the components of a drum kit (note the links take you to an online store, so don’t bother): http://www.playrecord.net/resource/a...-kit-guide.php

Link to a layout of a kit as if in the studio, incl panning and comprehensive mic placements for a real kit: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_m.../placement.htm

Link for more information on sequencing like real drums – panning, use of velocities, etc can be found here http://www.sonivoxmi.com/supportdrumsequence.htm

What I have added in the next post can be found in the other articles but mine is a more brief & subtle look at what drummers are capable (or not) of doing when they play, with my own slant. Part 1, if people like the style I'll throw up part 2 soon. Also trying keep the posts to a readable size. If they get too wordy let me know and I'll blog em somewhere and link. Part 2 will be about spatialisation of the kit when you play, and issues of speed/tempo for a player's technique.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

What MIDI interface are you running?

I have a AMT8, and would sell it in a heartbeat if I could be 100% sure Digi's own MIDI IO was spot on (with its timestamping).

Just a Roland UM-1! But bear in mind the SPD11 is over ten years old, it takes a sec for the old beast to process a note or 8! My needs are pretty lo-tech as I usually play live into audio and try not to quantise. But if MIDI'ing it up a basic 16th quantise fixes it up easily enough.
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Programming like areal drummer - part 1
PROGRAMMING LIKE A DRUMMER – ROBBIE’S WAY – PART 1

Drummers can typically play up to four sounds at once. Think in terms of polyphony – 4 note maximum – set your sampler or module to this value if you can.

Four note polyphony is the maximum but when playing most hi hat patterns it actually reduces to three (see below).

Certain sounds and techniques below I will count in terms of polyphony used – add them up and as long as you don’t go over four, all is good.

I’ll assume right handed playing on a stock kit setup – for programming, doesn’t matter if right or left handed. For tips on kit setup, see links in previous post.

FEET:
Kick is always right foot (1 NOTE)

Hi hat is commonly left foot
o By itself, makes a soft ‘closed hat’ sound (1 NOTE)
o If used to control open and closed hats, it makes no ‘sound’ as such and polyphony is reduced to three notes (-1 NOTE)
o Open and closed hats count for one note because you cannot have them both playing at the same time

Kick may be in left foot as well for double-kick patterns (1 NOTE)
o In this case the hi hat pedal is not used
o The hi hat is normally closed, or half-open for a slushy sound and played with the hand
o Can alternate between hi hat pedal and second kick, but only select advanced players can play both with one foot (heel on one pedal and toe on another – not common!) (2 NOTES)

HANDS:
The two hands are responsible for all other sounds

In most patterns:
o Right hand plays open or closed hi hats, ride and crash cymbals – sometimes toms and snare (1 NOTE)
o Left hand plays snare, hi hat, toms – sometimes crash (1 NOTE)
o Right handed players rarely play the ride with the left hand – too far over – although it is possible

In most fills:
o Both hands play any combination of sounds, based on their position in the kit
o The hands play alternating notes (1 NOTE), or a combination of simultaneous and alternating notes (1-2 NOTES)
o It is rare for both hands to play all simultaneous notes, unless the fill is relatively simple and at moderate to low tempo (2 NOTES)

OPEN AND CLOSED HI HAT
- Hi hat is an odd instrument because its pedal allows for a number of essential tones, namely the closed, open and pedal sounds.
- Open and closed hats cannot be heard at the same time, even when played with both hands, because they are a function of the pedal - it can only be up or down, not both
- For this reason, the polyphony of open and closed hats is only one combined - some modules deliberately do this, shutting off one hat sample when the other is played to emulate reality
- Subtle sizzling effects and slushiness can be created by holding the pedal half-closed - sounds like controlled crash, good for rockier, tougher tracks
- Some advanced drummers have two sets of hi hats, one driven by pedal and the other permanently closed. Multi-pdeal, multi hi hat setups are comparitively rare

SIMULTANEOUS RIDE AND HI HAT
- Both ride and hi hats can be played at the same time for intricate patterns
- Ride played by the right hand
- Hi hats played by the left hand
- The left hand can move off the hats to hit the snare, but can’t play hats and snare at the same time with the same hand
- The right hand can move off the ride to hit the snare, but can’t play ride and snare at the same time with the same hand
- The right hand can move off the ride to play the hats as well, but not very quickly – the drummer has to reach across the kit to do this – simple slower patterns are ok though
- The above applies to crashes and toms too – most combinations are ok as long as each hand don’t try to play two sounds at once. Can be dictated by positioning of drums as to which hand plays which thing. Next time in part 2.
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Nice li'l write up on the rules of drum polyphony.

The single biggest limitation I find with programming drums (thinking funk-style grooves here) is that ROMpler-style set-ups don't cope so well with the timbre changes with velocity variances.

So, for example, a mighty whacked snare should (obviously) sound different from a ghost snare - other than volume - without the need to bust one's ass rummaging through the preset list in a vein attempt to find something appropriate for the alternative sounding hits.

That's one of my desires to go with an e-kit...

...'course, a decent sampler loaded with multi-samples would work wonders for me too.
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When programming drums how do most people layout? ie from the drummers perspective or from the audiences perspective.. I personally always program from drummers perspective so have hihats and snare panned a little left, then follow from there.. Too me this seems right because when someone is facing towards a speaker it is going to be accurate.. would there be any advantage of reversing it? other than perhaps for kicks?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant Producer

When programming drums how do most people layout? ie from the drummers perspective or from the audiences perspective.. I personally always program from drummers perspective so have hihats and snare panned a little left, then follow from there.. Too me this seems right because when someone is facing towards a speaker it is going to be accurate.. would there be any advantage of reversing it? other than perhaps for kicks?

I hate to be captain obvious here mate but panning according to audience perspective is designed to mimic (to a degree) the watiching of a live concert. I guess because its the punter doing the listening and not the performer!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vagrant Producer

When programming drums how do most people layout? ie from the drummers perspective or from the audiences perspective.. I personally always program from drummers perspective so have hihats and snare panned a little left, then follow from there.. Too me this seems right because when someone is facing towards a speaker it is going to be accurate.. would there be any advantage of reversing it? other than perhaps for kicks?

Like wise I like drummer's perspective but then I am one so its more comforting to me! Slight difference in that I always pan snare dead centre. I might also over-exaggerate the panning of crash, ride etc to make room for synths and stuff further into the middle of the mix.

Audience perspective is just an alternate way - I'd imagine the mixing fraternity is pretty much split down the middle.
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^^^ The above got me thinking of the stereo image of drums and sparked a quick tip for yazall:

Tip for guerilla home/garage recording of a kit - strap a couple of little lapel mics on either side of a hat and stick it on the drummers head so the mics are above the ears. Record a stereo version of the kit from literally the drummer's ears, even as their head turns and bobs around

A more sensible version of this is if doing a basic overhead recording of the kit then stick the mic(s) behind the drummer and point back at the kit. Also try pointing the drummer's front to a reflective wall when you do this and catch some of the reflection back into the mic for some ambience (a trick I learnt from engineer Matt Voight). Make sure the kit and mic are on a slight angle and not perfectly parallel to the wall to avoid phase issues.

part 2 of that other is coming soon (thanx for the feedback Spectrum )

RB
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

Nice li'l write up on the rules of drum polyphony.

The single biggest limitation I find with programming drums (thinking funk-style grooves here) is that ROMpler-style set-ups don't cope so well with the timbre changes with velocity variances.

So, for example, a mighty whacked snare should (obviously) sound different from a ghost snare - other than volume - without the need to bust one's ass rummaging through the preset list in a vein attempt to find something appropriate for the alternative sounding hits.

That's one of my desires to go with an e-kit...

...'course, a decent sampler loaded with multi-samples would work wonders for me too.

Well, i've said this to you before... but maybe i should share

The answer is Alesis The DM series romplers do exactly this. It's especially noticeable on the snare, where the snap changes based on how hard you hit the thing, and it will ring/resonate longer with a harder hit... like a real snare. All the sounds work the same - it's not just volume that changes with a hit, the sounds take on a different tonal quality and delays. Not a volume delay, but more of a proper resonance. I think it's one of the reasons people call them "rocky" kits - they have a much more live edge to the sound, IMO making drum tracks for electronic music more palatable.
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^^^ re The Alesis DM series.

Yep, all sounding very cool. I want to try (the complete kit) before I buy.

The other day, I checked out (in Perth):
- Kosmic Sound... no.
- Billy Hydes Drumcraft.... no.

Looks like we have a mission for ourselves in Melbourne in a few weeks to track one of these things down.

<-- Gettin' into the spirit of the DM sounds. hehe...
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And speaking of all things DM5...

http://www.alesis.com/products/dm5/



PS. Check the name of the patch on the LCD!

So how do you suppose the synth architecture is set-up? Say, 4 sample layer, velocity switched/blended?

Plus, the DM5's Expanded Dynamic Articulation™ feature allows drum sounds to change volume, tone, and pitch depending on how hard they're hit – just like real drums. Plus, the DM5's Random Sample feature brings new life to static tracks by realistically varying the sound of the drum as you play.

Yep, sounds very cool, plus rackmountable, plus cheap as.



http://www.alesis.com/product.php?id=111

What I really want to get a feel for is the sensitivity of the rubber pads of the complete kit. EDIT: I assume those pads are white coated rubber, similar to the black runbber used on the non-Pro kit?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

And speaking of all things DM5...

http://www.alesis.com/products/dm5/


This, and its earlier brother the DM4, are also good ways to get a full set of trigger inputs for any kind of drum pad. On the second hand market a DM4 should be quite cheap, less than $200-300, and therefore provides a cheap way to get 12 trigger-to-MIDI converters. Hell of a lot cheaper than a V-Dum brain for example. Even if you didn't use the internal sounds in a DM4/5, the trig to MIDI conversion is very fast and sensitive. Several people I know use the DM modules for this sole purpose (given that the sounds themselves are open to personal taste).

My main criticism of these modules is the kicks don't have a huge amount of bottom end, but everything else is potentially useful.
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Ah... the 4 lacks a little in the bottom end, but Spectrum has heard a track i did using the DM5 with a kit i assembled from the presets... and there's a sub blowing kick in it. Very nice bottom end, and even sweeter with a little EQ.

Getting a DM4 for sub $300 in Aus in the current market may be a bit of a task. The last i looked around, they were fetching $400+ for the very reason that it's still a cheap brain, and it's had some industry adoption in studio's. I imported my DM5 from the states about 12 months ago, and had it landed for sub $225.

Spectrum - you can change the kit and sample names, if you wanted to That on the display is actually just the name for the kick allocated to b1 in kit 17. If you're going to take your lappy to melbourne, and you have a small midi interface, i'll chuck the DM5 in. I'm going to be flying Melbourne out of the country after my week stay, so i'm not keen to lug too much gear with me. Happy to throw the DM5 in, my GF will be heading back to Syd as i fly out of country... so she can lug it back. I think she'd kick me if i packed a full roadcase, though
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i thought this forum was about Electronic Dance Music?

why would you want to sound like a 'real drummer'? it's supposed to be about experimentation and new ideas...

BREAK THE RULES!
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you need to understand the context behind them b4 u can break em
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Quote:

Originally Posted by blip

i thought this forum was about Electronic Dance Music?

why would you want to sound like a 'real drummer'? it's supposed to be about experimentation and new ideas...

BREAK THE RULES!


House: Boom Chick Boom Chick Boom Chick Boom Chick (ad nauseum)

Breaks: Boom Whack Boom Boom Whack (ad nauseum)

Real Drummer: &^@*@*(%^@#%@&*@#(*)@)__@#*U#%T@#$%@T%^@&UJ)SDHII@ (*@^@TGGHS^&DSJSMSOIES*IYEYEUDIOXMJDHGHD*&HDS*HNSN SUIN@&*GH@&YT&*YHB&*@&^T@*^&%^*&T@Y*(H(SD(HJ@(Y@^T @$%DTYDHDUU(@(U@TYDH(JS)KSK)@UJ*YH@^&G@^GG*(H)(JDD )JK@DS(*HJ@D&G&G!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now who's breakin' the rules?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jester_fu

Spectrum - If you're going to take your lappy to melbourne, and you have a small midi interface, i'll chuck the DM5 in. I'm going to be flying Melbourne out of the country after my week stay, so i'm not keen to lug too much gear with me. Happy to throw the DM5 in, my GF will be heading back to Syd as i fly out of country... so she can lug it back. I think she'd kick me if i packed a full roadcase, though


[private message]

Well thought I'd grabbed my li'l 4x4 Roland S-MPU64 while in Syd but it must be still there. Shame as I'm hopin' to sell it off (though do people still buy MIDI interfaces these days? ). Anyway, will have my laptop, but not my Digi002 dongle. Trav on the other hand has a MIDI controller kbd and Live 5 so perhaps we can rig that up for some fun, games, and Pure Blondes.

Yeah, so pack the DM5 if you can.... it'd be cool to check it out. <-- When did the geek come about?!!!

[/private message]
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Speaking of breaking rules, I had an idea and thought I'd air it for feedback before pursuing it:
Watching Mr Pike of Triosk drum is mind bending. I was wondering if it could be taken a step further though, to make human-played IDM-style drumming even crazier... Using a D4 and a sampler of sorts would multisampling completely different sounds accross the velocity range on each trigger be viable, provided playing style was adjusted to account for it?
I've not tried it nor know what to expect, hence asking. The idea being all sorts of whacky sounds and patterns would result from constantly slightly varying playing style.

On the topic of Alesis units, my D4 was bought on ebay for $250ish which was a bargain compared to the current going price of $3-400 nowadays as mentioned above. It was lent to a mate who replaced the module on his Legend kit with it and he said it was far more responsive than the legend. Now I've finally got it back I'm considering either triggering my little brother's kit or adding a few extra trigger pads to it so he can experiment with ideas like above. DIY is an option in mind for trigger pads as well, need to find some spare time and creativity first before that's approached.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitsmasher

would multisampling completely different sounds accross the velocity range on each trigger be viable, provided playing style was adjusted to account for it?
I've not tried it nor know what to expect, hence asking. The idea being all sorts of whacky sounds and patterns would result from constantly slightly varying playing style.


It'd be viable, though in use, I see it only as a way to increase the effective number of pads/sounds at one's disposal.

So one could extract, say, 2 or 3 different sounds, depending on how hard the pad was hit. Yeah, could be useful, and at the same time could be frustrating when one wants to belt out the sounds that have been linked to the lightest of hits.

Something I'd like to rig up is two kicks for the right foot (something that's next to impossible with an acoustic kit). Yeah, I know one can do double kick pedals, or another kick drum on the left foot, however both just ain't practical while wanting to retain full use of the left foot on the hats. I like the prospect of having a light plus a heavy kick sound at my disposal, so the first down beat of the bar can be booooom, while the rest of the bar's kicks are lighter and tighter, for example.

Mind you, using your multi-yet-different-sample technique, this could be done with samples on a single kick trigger, the heaviest kick triggering the booooom!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

House: Boom Chick Boom Chick Boom Chick Boom Chick (ad nauseum)

Breaks: Boom Whack Boom Boom Whack (ad nauseum)

Real Drummer: &^@*@*(%^@#%@&*@#(*)@)__@#*U#%T@#$%@T%^@&UJ)SDHII@ (*@^@TGGHS^&DSJSMSOIES*IYEYEUDIOXMJDHGHD*&HDS*HNSN SUIN@&*GH@&YT&*YHB&*@&^T@*^&%^*&T@Y*(H(SD(HJ@(Y@^T @$%DTYDHDUU(@(U@TYDH(JS)KSK)@UJ*YH@^&G@^GG*(H)(JDD )JK@DS(*HJ@D&G&G!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now who's breakin' the rules?

haha yer i was gonna say somthin about the Boom Chick Boom Whack...


but it's a bit like saying well a drummer doesnt have 3 arms so you should only play back what a real drummer can play...

i dont believe in that school of thought. As long as it sounds good then who cares how the beat is played...

i can see 'real drumming' methods useful though
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Quote:

Originally Posted by blip

but it's a bit like saying well a drummer doesnt have 3 arms so you should only play back what a real drummer can play...

i dont believe in that school of thought. As long as it sounds good then who cares how the beat is played...

Yeah, rules like "crash can't sound at same time as hat and snare" can prove limiting when much of the fun (and obvious benefit of) sequencing is layers upon layers of percussion...

...which one can also do in the real world when one gathers some of the world's best drummers together for one mighty showdown.

Media Player

While Dope's posted it here before, this vid is worth a repost in this thread. I was first in awe of this vid while I was doing 'work experience' as a kid at Andy Evans (since taken over by Billy Hydes) Drumcraft, Surry Hills, Sydney.

And we think drum machines and computer sequencers opens us up to experiment and arrive at new ideas. Are we only dreaming?

(EDIT: Cleaner-and-downloadable clip avail here: http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/showdown.html ).
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Quote:

Originally Posted by blip

i thought this forum was about Electronic Dance Music?

why would you want to sound like a 'real drummer'? it's supposed to be about experimentation and new ideas...

BREAK THE RULES!

Yeah totally cool man, on many levels I agree, however many people like to draw on convention and tradition as starting points for writing music as well.

In my tunes I like to blend both live and synthetic, but that's just personal taste and open to change.

NOTE TO ALL
Whenever I post tips and advice here now and in the future, bear in mind I may be only talking about one specific aspect of music production. I'm one of the most open minded guys you'll ever meet when to comes to this stuff, I have played more styles of music than is worth mentioning from techno to aussie pub rock to jazz and orchestras. I'm also open to just about every production technique there is, and I couldn't care less what gear is used as long as the tunes rock out. Nothing I ever say could be a blanket statement about everything to do with music. That's not the point of the thread - I want to see lots of tidbits of stuff we can all share
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

House: Boom Chick Boom Chick Boom Chick Boom Chick (ad nauseum)

Breaks: Boom Whack Boom Boom Whack (ad nauseum)

Real Drummer: &^@*@*(%^@#%@&*@#(*)@)__@#*U#%T@#$%@T%^@&UJ)SDHII@ (*@^@TGGHS^&DSJSMSOIES*IYEYEUDIOXMJDHGHD*&HDS*HNSN SUIN@&*GH@&YT&*YHB&*@&^T@*^&%^*&T@Y*(H(SD(HJ@(Y@^T @$%DTYDHDUU(@(U@TYDH(JS)KSK)@UJ*YH@^&G@^GG*(H)(JDD )JK@DS(*HJ@D&G&G!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now who's breakin' the rules?

Q What's the difference between a drummer and a drum machine?
A You only have to punch the patterns into a drum machine once

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

The single biggest limitation I find with programming drums (thinking funk-style grooves here) is that ROMpler-style set-ups don't cope so well with the timbre changes with velocity variances.

So, for example, a mighty whacked snare should (obviously) sound different from a ghost snare - other than volume - without the need to bust one's ass rummaging through the preset list in a vein attempt to find something appropriate for the alternative sounding hits.

That's one of my desires to go with an e-kit...

...'course, a decent sampler loaded with multi-samples would work wonders for me too.

Spectrum inspired me to add some quick tips here for uze regarding picking sounds for multi-velocity snares, kicks and hats:

To keep it simple I'll stick to two velocities. Depending on the sounds and the track, start with the loud ones b/w 100-127 and soft ones b/w 64-90 then adjust to suit.

SNARE:
- both loud and soft sounds basically the same pitch
- soft sound has:
- brighter tone/EQ than the louder
- more buzzing with maybe a slightly longer decay
- more harmonic 'ping'
- less pronounced 'thwack' pumping the bottom end of it - remove some 200-500Hz from it if needed

KICK:
- Again both the same pitch if possible
- soft sound has:
- noticeably less bottom end then the loud
- shorter decay time and less resonance
- more pronounced 1-2kHz 'click' for hard beater or lo-mid 'thump' for soft beater

HATS:
- Loud sound can be same pitch or slightly lower than the soft
- Soft sound has:
- shorter decay than the loud
- tighter, less slushy decay tone
- brighter, tighter attack
- less bottom end - hi pass @ 2-3kHz

COMPRESSION TIP:
Once the layers are sequenced, pass both sounds through the same compressor. Then set the compressor's threshold to just start gain-reducing by a tiny amount ('tickling it') when triggered by the soft sound. Then ride the ratio up and down to adjust the amount of compression applied to the loud sound - lower ratio = less compression = more dynamics & hi ratio = more compression = less dynamics. The rate of attack and release can be adjusted to allow the two sounds to pump together with quite subtle dynamic shifts too.

Cheers RB
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hey rb,,sweet thread mate!!! thnkx
any tips on blending kicks with basslines, is there a special formula to get that "blended" galloping bass/kick in nice unison?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by klassik

hey rb,,sweet thread mate!!! thnkx
any tips on blending kicks with basslines, is there a special formula to get that "blended" galloping bass/kick in nice unison?

Thanks for the kind words, happy to oblige.

Are you talking about a literal unison rhythmically or just getting them feeling locked and tight together? If the latter then side-chain compression is very common. Many posts have mentioned how to do this before so a search should find them.

If you're talking rhythmic unison then I like to think in terms of breaking it up into 3 areas - tone, timing and dynamics.

Tone - if you want them to blend, try sounds with similar tonal properties in their attack. If the bass has soft rounded note attacks, use a kick with more of a 'thud' attack than a 'click'. The opposite for brighter slappy bass.

Timing - two things.
- First, phase. If on audio tracks, zoom in really close and check the phase of the waves is the same between the tracks. If not, nudge one into line with the other. Instant increase in bottom end.
- Second a little issue called masking. This is when two sounds are heard and one becomes so loud it reduces our ability to hear the other. Masking also occurs between sounds with slight timing differences. You can exploit this to effect to 'blur' when the kick begins and the bass ends in the listener's mind. Try placing one sound up to 10msec ahead or behind the other (but still in phase). You'll notice a point where one becomes less audible in relation to the other for a split second then restores back to normal audibility again. May throw timing out, so better with softer attack sounds.

Dynamics - instead of fancy side-chain compression, try just bussing both tracks to the same compressor and running them together through the same settings. Forces them into the same dynamic contour.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

It'd be viable, though in use, I see it only as a way to increase the effective number of pads/sounds at one's disposal.
So one could extract, say, 2 or 3 different sounds, depending on how hard the pad was hit. Yeah, could be useful, and at the same time could be frustrating when one wants to belt out the sounds that have been linked to the lightest of hits.

Indeed, that's the real motivation: get more sounds out of the kit. Dynamics will be sacrificed but for the sounds/style I'm after that won't be the biggest issue. Just teaching my bro how to play what I'm thinking will be interesting - glitchy IDM/breakcore stuff. A mate was majorly drunk and offered to sell his Legend kit for cheap, might take up that offer (if he doesn't fold on it) and push the idea forward. The idea of multiple pedals is good too, makes sense in that without the space constaints of the beater and drum you can explore "bigger" kits with more varied sounds. Technology is great.
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mm.. that video reminded me how fucki namazing weckl was live.. many (any for that matter) of you go when he came 6 months ago? blew my fuckin mind!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitsmasher

Indeed, that's the real motivation: get more sounds out of the kit. Dynamics will be sacrificed but for the sounds/style I'm after that won't be the biggest issue. Just teaching my bro how to play what I'm thinking will be interesting - glitchy IDM/breakcore stuff. A mate was majorly drunk and offered to sell his Legend kit for cheap, might take up that offer (if he doesn't fold on it) and push the idea forward. The idea of multiple pedals is good too, makes sense in that without the space constaints of the beater and drum you can explore "bigger" kits with more varied sounds. Technology is great.

just letting you know that those legend kits are majorly cheap to start with, so what may seema good deal might be quite expensive, they retail at 700$ from what i remember). maybe worth going to allans or billy hydes and tryign one out? (or going to your mate's place of course), i've been told that the pads feel, well, fake, but that's from a mate that plays a pearl masters custom and a 3000$ roland V-kit, so a little biased
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Quote:

Originally Posted by ferretrock

mm.. that video reminded me how fucki namazing weckl was live.. many (any for that matter) of you go when he came 6 months ago? blew my fuckin mind!

He was here in Perth last July, and I chose to skip it because:
- it was a late Wednesday night.
- wife would have hated it.
- I'm an absolute fool.

Yep, weckl is amazing, and pleased he's ditched that hair cut too. How was his gig (need I ask)? It was plugged as a jazz ensemble, wasn't it? How deep, down, hard'n'funky did they get?
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Random thought for the day...

This one comes from some recent recording experiments I did for my postgrad. I'm studying the acoustics of percussion instruments and recently did some true 'reference' recordings of single-shot percussion hits, at both 44.1kHz and 192kHz simultaneously into two different computers. So my thought for you all is...

Are really high sample rates any advantage over 'standard' 44.1 and 48k when playing drum samples?

Well, in my experience:
Is there a noticeable difference in top end? No, well not for my ears that top out at ~18kHz
Is there a noticeable difference in the realism of the instrument? Yes! They sound fuller, tighter and more 'solid'. You can hear more of the instrument's real nature

Why? imho it comes down to the transients, the complex series of frequencies that occur at the beginning of the sound. Many percussive sounds complete their transient phase within 50 msec, sometimes even less. Attack times can be almost instantaneous. And in percussion, these first few milliseconds contain the bulk of timbral/tonal information.

Let's say I have a sound with transients that go for 50msec. At 44.1kHz, I get 2205 samples captured at even time periods. But at 192kHz I get 9600 samples captured. There is greater opportunity for accurate representation of high frequency waves that come and go quickly in that initial transient phase. Accurate transient capture = accurate timbral reproduction.

It's why many engineers swear by analog for recording drums over digital. With analog capture, the resolution is virtually infinite. It's also why a real 909 kick or snare often sounds so much fatter and tougher than a 44.1kHz sample of it - the analog drum machine outputs a continuous signal, whereas the sample has reduced the transient resolution down to 4410 captures per 100msec.

That's not to say 44.1k isn't fine, because it is, we live with it every day. But for the nerdy nerds, the subtle yet noticeable difference is worth checking out if you can.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmboy

Random thought for the day...

And what pretty cool thinking it was!

It's an interesting concept to link the minute detail contained in the briefest of transients to the greater resolution available to 192kHz (over 44.1kHz) sample rates.

I'm still not sold though.

I recognise that the sharp attack, or transient, is going to be brief, but does it really carry the bulk of timbral/tonal info? Let's consider the whack of the stick against a tom. The sharp, click upon impact is the transient, however, the timbre and tone arrives through the lingering resonance of the drum skin/shell over time.

Say I (and apologies for not testing this out in advance) trimmed a percussion sample to just the opening 50ms or less. How recognisable will it be? Or will it resemble more of a pop or a click, with little hint of the percussion instrument's true timbre?

Maybe it's 'cause my ears are shot from bashing too many drums as a kid?

Anyway, gonna have a further think about this and come back to this one when I'm not so exhausted....
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Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmboy

Thanks for the kind words, happy to oblige.

Are you talking about a literal unison rhythmically or just getting them feeling locked and tight together? If the latter then side-chain compression is very common. Many posts have mentioned how to do this before so a search should find them.

If you're talking rhythmic unison then I like to think in terms of breaking it up into 3 areas - tone, timing and dynamics.

Tone - if you want them to blend, try sounds with similar tonal properties in their attack. If the bass has soft rounded note attacks, use a kick with more of a 'thud' attack than a 'click'. The opposite for brighter slappy bass.

Timing - two things.
- First, phase. If on audio tracks, zoom in really close and check the phase of the waves is the same between the tracks. If not, nudge one into line with the other. Instant increase in bottom end.
- Second a little issue called masking. This is when two sounds are heard and one becomes so loud it reduces our ability to hear the other. Masking also occurs between sounds with slight timing differences. You can exploit this to effect to 'blur' when the kick begins and the bass ends in the listener's mind. Try placing one sound up to 10msec ahead or behind the other (but still in phase). You'll notice a point where one becomes less audible in relation to the other for a split second then restores back to normal audibility again. May throw timing out, so better with softer attack sounds.

Dynamics - instead of fancy side-chain compression, try just bussing both tracks to the same compressor and running them together through the same settings. Forces them into the same dynamic contour.

thank-you mate
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> I hate to be captain obvious here mate but panning according to audience perspective is designed to > mimic (to a degree) the watiching of a live concert.

what...all the drums in the centre? otherwise you better watch out for the 18m wide drum kit. How does he play those cymbals?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectrum

And what pretty cool thinking it was!

It's an interesting concept to link the minute detail contained in the briefest of transients to the greater resolution available to 192kHz (over 44.1kHz) sample rates.

I'm still not sold though.

I recognise that the sharp attack, or transient, is going to be brief, but does it really carry the bulk of timbral/tonal info? Let's consider the whack of the stick against a tom. The sharp, click upon impact is the transient, however, the timbre and tone arrives through the lingering resonance of the drum skin/shell over time.

Say I (and apologies for not testing this out in advance) trimmed a percussion sample to just the opening 50ms or less. How recognisable will it be? Or will it resemble more of a pop or a click, with little hint of the percussion instrument's true timbre?

Maybe it's 'cause my ears are shot from bashing too many drums as a kid?

Anyway, gonna have a further think about this and come back to this one when I'm not so exhausted....

i have to agree on your point phil i just loaded up my favourite snare sample and played the first 50 ms of it you only JUST! get to relise that it's a snare .. i'd have to say after the first transient peak which is about 30 ms your going to get the fullness of the skin timbre .. depending on the tightness of the skin you get that really snappy white noise or a psuedo tom sound which all happens after that initial 30ms ....



oh and thread stuck some helpful info here
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Whoahoa a sticky!!! And for a measly 100 poster. Thank you to the supporters - you know who you are. Flattered and chuffed :blush: Fully plan to keep it active as much as I can...

^^Loving the debate above fellas, may I suggest we are all correct. I picked 50msec out of my arse for the sake of example. In reality, pitch and timbre identification times change with frequency (gets shorter as pitch goes up) and with complexity (gets longer as tones get noisier). Pitch identification can be anywhere from 5msec to 50+msec. Timbre identification typically between 20msec and 200msec. So it does depend on the sound.

I have some samples of metals like glockenspiel, cowbell, tubular bells etc that have very fast transient attacks and after 100-200msec decay down to only one or two sine waves when analysed. High sample rates have had the most dramatic effect on the 'reality' of these kinds of samples.

As a thank you to all for the sticky status, next week I'll upload a zip of some comparison files, and even give away some exotic samples (thunder sheet, rain stick, tubular bell, etc) They're for my studies and cost a fortune to get recorded so I can't promise too much I'm sorry!
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