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National Broadband Network
In this thread, we discuss the NBN.

So the two major players, Telstra and Terria, have until November 26th to lodge their final proposals for Australia's new National Broadband Network, which is set to include $4.7b of taxpayer funding.

Telstra promises

Quote:

"...highly capable, reliable, secure, world-class networks and we deliver on time and on budget."

While the Optus-led coalition, Terria aims to

Quote:

"...ensure we have an open access network that encourages competition... This is an issue not just about having high-speed internet -- it's about microeconomic reform"

Who would you like to see win the tender, and why? Does Telstra's superior number of technicians to maintain such a network tip the scales in their favour?

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My biased opinion against telstra won't really help me decide in their favor. While it's good that the highlight of their proposal focuses mainly on quality and delivering to SLA standards, I get the feeling that money will be the biggest player in anything they do.

And who'll be forking out?

Where can we find the sources to the actual propositions themselves? I'd like a bit of a gander to see how exactly Terria plan on going about it.

(Also glad to finally see some sort of discussion take place about this election promise - finally! World class broadband! )
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They've got till end of Nov to lodge their proposals, so I doubt we'd be able to see anything accurate just now. I'm with you bede, I'm massively biased against Telstra and I'd just about be happy with Terria getting it purely to shake things up! Telstra was all we knew for so long, and now that other Telcos are getting their teeth into the market, and proving they are capable, people are realising that there are other options!

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If you look at the way Telstra have run the legacy copper network, the restrictions they place on it, and their pricing, I don't want them to have anything to do with the NBN.

Coversely, the G13 (Terria) have no evidence they can roll out the netwwork and seem to be fighting amongst themselves.

If you look at the details of the pricing models which have been released, Telstra are charging *way* too much - I'm not paying their proposed prices for a broadband service. But Telstra are guaranteeing pricing for a longer period of time.

Terria's pricing (details of which have been sketchy) seems better. However it's guaranteed for a far shorter period of time.

This means if they have a low take up - they are able to push the price up. So Telstra are taking more investment risk then Terria.

Based on history, Telstra have been really crap at providing an open access regime (at reasonable costs). You'd imagine Terria should be better at it - because they have 13 players they are catering for.

Telstra have shown with their Next G rollout that they are capable of delivering a world class service quickly.

I do concede Telstra have a valid issue with the use of their copper network on the Terria system. It's unfair for one private companies network to rely on another companies asset to be able to work. Somehow, compensation is required.

In an ideal world, I think that neither company should get it. It should be a government owned, not for profit organisation charged with providing open access to any telecoms company based on a common access formula. Much like th egovernment originally had with other "new" utilities like power networks, gas networks and the original Telstra copper network. My second choice would be a standalone wholesaling company, but we're too far down the Telstra privitisation track for that to work.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by korupt

They've got till end of Nov to lodge their proposals, so I doubt we'd be able to see anything accurate just now. I'm with you bede, I'm massively biased against Telstra and I'd just about be happy with Terria getting it purely to shake things up! Telstra was all we knew for so long, and now that other Telcos are getting their teeth into the market, and proving they are capable, people are realising that there are other options!

QFT. Would love to see Telstra lose out here, just for the fun of it.
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either way its going to be epic fail, but i'd rather see telstra not win this one.

Last edited by diarx: 04-Sep-08 at 10:49am

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Mind emphasising on why you think it'll be epic fail dairyx? Not doubting you in any way as I too have my suspicions, just curious.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by diarx

either way its going to be epic fail, but i'd rather see telsta not win this one.

I'm probably inthe same boat, and it's probably why I'd prefer the government who can get away with stuff to do it.

1) Cost of construction. We're talking a huge amount of construction work. The price of this work has escalated to ridiculous levels recently, so it will blow the budget before they get to South Morang, let alone Mildura.

2) Pricing. Regular jo schmo Internet users don't see any reason to get more bandwidth. Sure, you'll have you torrentz people and leading edge suckers who want the lastest, greatest, fastest and have the money to pay for it. But I'm not paying > $100 a month to get something which I pay $60 a month for now ($20 a month rental and $40 for ADSL) and am not desperately unhappy with. The onyl thign that will change this is things like Internet TV, but we can't even manage to get digital multichannelling bradcastign sorted out, so I can't see Internet TV anytime in the next 10 years.
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What's the construction period they are looking at here?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by B_e_de

Mind emphasising on why you think it'll be epic fail dairyx? Not doubting you in any way as I too have my suspicions, just curious.

Pretty much what write my name said.. 13 companies that are supposed to be competing against each other working together to achieve something on that big of a scale just seems destined to fail. Doubt they'd be able to deliver the network in a reasonable timeframe without a lot of setbacks/problems.

Telstra could deliver the network I believe, but not without massive delays, half the performance promised and a massive cost to Rudd's struggling working family end users.
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The Terria consortium's total lack of experience in building and maintaining large scale customer access networks can't be a good thing.

Unless structural seperation of Telstra occurs, I can't see how a Terria bid to contruct this network will be feasible if the current copper network will be used as the last mile to the customer's premises. The alternative is to build a totally independant network, in which case Telstra's copper network cash cow quickly becomes redundant and all the mum and dad investors have their Telstra share price plummet overnight.

The most plausible scenario is that Telstra will win the tender to build and maintain the network - if so, lets just hope the government has the balls to lay down some decent and fair ground rules so that the customer (wholesale or otherwise) isn't getting reamed.

The problem here is that the government's $5 billion contribution would be a token one. Unless the government (and the Australian public) are the majority stakeholder, the company that builds the network is understandably going to want final say over the terms in which other companies and customers get access, no?

edit: another scenario to consider is the case where Terria do win the bid to build a network using the government contribution. Telstra would only be going ahead and rolling out their own (competing) FTTx network regardless. This would be great for us consumers, but would also put the government in a strange position of being an investor/shareholder in two directly competing networks.

Last edited by suenomartino: 04-Sep-08 at 11:43am

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I think terria is 8 companies, not 13. Not that that's relevant I guess.

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Originally Posted by Xpose

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott

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Quote:

Originally Posted by korupt

I think terria is 8 companies, not 13. Not that that's relevant I guess.

You are correct - It was G-9, then Powertel got taken over by AAPT, so it is now "AAPT, Internode Systems, iiNet, Macquarie Telecom, Optus, Primus Telecom, Soul and TransACT. "

The other thing is the tender document specifies 12 megabits per second to 98% of the population.

Try selling that to those who are lucky enough to have a Telstra competitor selling them ADSL 2+ for less then Telstra's wholesale guaranteed price for FTTN.
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Some comments from Paul Budde:

http://www.budde.com.au/News_and_Vie...s_Network.aspx
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I've already got ADSL2+ so until they are giving me FTTH, I don't really care.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDenver

I've already got ADSL2+ so until they are giving me FTTH, I don't really care.

You should. Here are two reasons -

1. The government is spending/investing $4.7 billion of public money into the venture.

2. Depending on the design, you aren't going to be able to keep your piece of copper connected between the phone exchange and home - they'll want everyoen on an upgraded node to be connected to it. There goes you nice ADSL 2+ link.....
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Broadband plan gets go ahead

http://www.theage.com.au/news/techno...869956384.html

let's see what happens
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Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDenver

I've already got ADSL2+ so until they are giving me FTTH, I don't really care.

Now, you care.
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What I'm curious about is how the government proceeds with content filtering on the new network. What I mean by that is the current filter proposal on the existing infrastructure appears to be falling apart, but a whole new network could be sold with a "terms of use" caveat that would essentially be a backdoor to the same outcome as the initial proposal. Their argument could be remarkably simple: If you want to use the our new faster network, you have to agree to our terms of service.
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they probably *will* do that, and it will be just as easy to bypass.

They are not going to be able to stop secure encrypted VPN connections.
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FTTH. Fucking win. Took them stupidly long to figure something out. 2018 until total completion so given the current pace of decision making, i'm expecting a finish date of 2042.

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Fix The Farking Roads And Transport Rudd-you Farking Pinhead !
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A wholesale-only company running an open access network - good for competition.

Haven't seen it confirmed, but they'll most likely plump for GPON

Press release: http://www.minister.dbcde.gov.au/med...eases/2009/022

Brochure: http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/asset...ow_res_web.pdf
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Interesting situation we have here.

Previous government sells off most of Telstra, current government now needs to spend money to create a new communication solution.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by locky

Fix The Farking Roads And Transport Rudd-you Farking Pinhead !

as much as i agree that rudd is a pinhead, roads & transport is a state government thing.
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This actually looks great on paper - it'd be fantastic to see it come to fruition.
I'm surprised that they're opting for FTTH. Fuck yeah!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by write my name

In an ideal world, I think that neither company should get it. It should be a government owned, not for profit organisation charged with providing open access to any telecoms company based on a common access formula. Much like th egovernment originally had with other "new" utilities like power networks, gas networks and the original Telstra copper network. My second choice would be a standalone wholesaling company, but we're too far down the Telstra privitisation track for that to work.

Ka-ching! I'm in the money! (This post was in Sept last year).

Of course, announcing a policy is different to building the thing. Still don't like the fact that Telstra have pits down every street and unless a deal is struck, every street is going to have a duplicate set.

Oh well - it's a start of a good idea. Love to see it move ahead with urgency, but no chance of that.
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Needs to be faster.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Charger

Needs to be faster.

Trying to predict what speed will be available in 2014 is pretty difficult. If they rollout fibre - 9/10's of the job is done - then they just have to upgrade the terminating equipment. Bye, bye the limitations of copper.

I can't believe newspapers bought the hype of "wireless will make it redundant". Wireless internet has a place - but exptrapolating its recent growth and using it to calaculate wired internet market share in 2014? :nuts:

Perhaps they should look at Optarse and see it doesn't scale.
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I'd much prefer a FTTH connection than wireless.

Pipe it into my home then let me decide what I do with it fuckers.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by write my name

Trying to predict what speed will be available in 2014 is pretty difficult. If they rollout fibre - 9/10's of the job is done - then they just have to upgrade the terminating equipment. Bye, bye the limitations of copper.

They should be aiming higher than 100Mbits/s, don't you think? At least 0.5Gbit/s average for regional (non-remote) and up to 1Gbit/s in metro IMHO. Would that not will bring us in line with world-leading countries in broadband infrastructure rather than just playing catch-up?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Charger

They should be aiming higher than 100Mbits/s, don't you think? At least 0.5Gbit/s average for regional (non-remote) and up to 1Gbit/s in metro IMHO. Would that not will bring us in line with world-leading countries in broadband infrastructure rather than just playing catch-up?

It's already a pretty expensive project. How much would that add to the overall cost? And in turn, how much would that add to the prices we will be charged (as a customer) to get onto this new network? I've already heard some big numbers being thrown around for line costs.
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True enough, though I would think the cost would be cheaper to lay bigger pipes now. Sure you pay more for pipes now, but you don't have to pay to dig all the holes twice and more in the long run for the pipes.

I wonder how much it might cost to do the secondary upgrade to the network from 100Mbits/s to 0.5/1Gbits/s and whether or not this has been considered in the briefing to the government on this plan.

Just thinking out loud.
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Once the fibre is in, we don't need to dig up the ground again do we? I thought things could be done at either end to increase the speed as new technology comes along?
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Yes, I see that now, above. Guess I just haven't wrapped my little brain around this fangled technology.

I suppose I have 8 years to get used to it.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Charger

True enough, though I would think the cost would be cheaper to lay bigger pipes now. Sure you pay more for pipes now, but you don't have to pay to dig all the holes twice and more in the long run for the pipes.

I wonder how much it might cost to do the secondary upgrade to the network from 100Mbits/s to 0.5/1Gbits/s and whether or not this has been considered in the briefing to the government on this plan.

Just thinking out loud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Moon

Once the fibre is in, we don't need to dig up the ground again do we? I thought things could be done at either end to increase the speed as new technology comes along?

The optical path is all they are installing, specing a speed on it is just the terminating equipment as mentioned earlier. Just as with the endless speed bumps on copper we'll have similar extensions on the fibre into the future (quantum transmission FTW).

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Moon

Once the fibre is in, we don't need to dig up the ground again do we? I thought things could be done at either end to increase the speed as new technology comes along?

Exactly. Get the fibre in, and then as the technology at the terminating ends changes, increase the speeds.

Saying 0.5Gbps is a pipedream at this point and will result in political suicide. Sure, the technology might (will?) exist at that point in time - but there's a cost to being leading edge - and do we want to be there?

And whats the point of every household having 0.5Gbps - when the backhaul - and US links - won't be able to deal with that sort of volume of data?

I'm happy to aim for a slower, cheaper, termination technology in order to make it accessible to Joe Average. We can bump speeds up once the fibre is out there.

Not everyone wants $100 a month broadband. I sure don't.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by write my name

Not everyone wants $100 a month broadband. I sure don't.

$100/month 100Mb/10Mb static IP and 50GB data, bring it on!

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I can dream!
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You can double post
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I already pay 89+29 for my internets/landline.

To have a real fibre Ethernet connection rather than fucking ADSL2+ would be sweeeeeeeet

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Originally Posted by gotamangina View Post

I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by write my name

Not everyone wants $100 a month broadband. I sure don't.

What about say $120 a month for 100mbps internet, a home IP phone service and 600 TV channels?
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^ exactly, if I could ditch the extra $120 odd I currently pay for foxtel per month, I'd be miles in front.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Charger

They should be aiming higher than 100Mbits/s, don't you think?

When you could download a 1080p movie in around 5 mins I won't be complaining.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suenomartino

What about say $120 a month for 100mbps internet, a home IP phone service and 600 TV channels?

depends how many of those channels are german porn?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mungo

$100/month 100Mb/10Mb static IP and 50GB data, bring it on!

dynamic IP is better for posting on forums

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Originally Posted by Portal

depends how many of those channels are german porn?

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ubiqutous 1Gbps services

Quote:

Moments after shadow Minister for Communications Tony Smith criticised the government and NBN Co for proceeding without a business plan, NBN Co chief outlined his plan for business: ubiquitous 1Gbps services.


Mike Quigley, NBN Co chief.
(Credit: Liam Tung/ZDNet.com.au)
"We will have one consistent set of products across the whole national footprint. And that means consistent ubiquitous service up to one gigabit per second (Gbps)," Quigley told the Australian Telecommunications User Group conference today, held at the Australian Technology Park in Sydney.

"Everyone keeps talking about 100Mbps. But that's obviously when we're talking about residents. For business we are allowing for a certain percentage in our dimensioning to structure point-to-point services up to 1Gbps."

Quigley later explained that this capability would be built in under-serviced areas, as opposed to Sydney's central business district which is sufficiently covered. He gave the example that Commonwealth Bank's Sydney headquarters might have a fibre connection; however, its branches often lacked such infrastructure.

"Even in large places — down in Hobart — I got people to show me which buildings were 'fibred'. I was quite surprised at how few there were. Sydney, of course, is fairly different," he said.

"In the short term, we believe business has the most to gain ... I can assure you that we really are focused on what is important for business."

Another benefit for business would be that retail service providers under the NBN would be able to more easily guarantee "committed speeds".

"We're looking at a guaranteed, reliable bandwidth on access links. We are going to have extremely high availability across the network; we are going to be making sure we align restoration and response times; we will have the potential to add redundancy where a customer requires it; and the ability to provide high speed symmetrical services," he said.

Quigley's comments, which might cast the NBN in a new light for the business community, followed Smith's damning the government for failing to hold to the precepts that the same community holds dear — forming a business plan before starting a venture.


Shadow Communications Minister Tony Smith
(Credit: Liam Tung/ZDNet.com.au)
"To embark on this sort of project out of the ashes of the failed NBN without any cost-benefit analysis or any business plan is reckless," said Smith. "It is not something we are apologetic about. But importantly, it is not a view that we express solely. It is a view that has been echoed by so many business analysts and business councils, and the Productivity Commission," said Smith.

It was the first time Smith has talked at any length about the NBN Co or the telecommunications sector, and he took the opportunity to remind delegates that the Liberal's $1 billion OPEL plan, killed by Labor after it won the election, would have delivered benefits to regional Australia already.

"I think governments are very bad at picking technology. This is not a political point, but we are bad at picking technology for a one-size-fits-all approach," he said.

"The Rudd Government likes to talk about speeds — very high speeds — as if these newer and higher speeds will be delivered for the same price as the speeds of today. And of course, as you know, that's not the case. Analysts have rightly pointed out there has been some debate about how those costs may be. The one certainty is that it will be significantly higher than what people pay today for a similar service."

Quigley begged to differ on this point. NBN Co was going to price with reference to existing services. "Nothing else makes much sense," he said.

"Forget all this stuff about $200 wholesale access prices. Don't worry. We will not be pricing at those sort of levels."

NBN Co, said Quigley, would be assessing the economics of retail service providers and asking itself how it could give superior performance at around entry-level prices. Flexibility would be key, with people only paying for what they value. "And there will be modest charges for incremental services, for example, upstream speed increases," he said.

Quigley, however, refrained from outlining exact wholesale pricing it plans to offer since it will be required to negotiate with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.

http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/communi...9301748,00.htm

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