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Who is Turnbull? (now with added Utegate)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron

Why do people hate Turnbull so much because he was a banker?

strawman, nobody here hates him, nobody hates him because he was a banker,
maybe you want to ask why some people have little respect for him?
I bet even you could answer that
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

He was a merchant banker, they are about making money off of projects and mergers and fees, fees, fees. What has that got to do with sound economic policy?

3/10ths of fuck all.

Is being a merchant banker any worse than being a career politician or union leader?

Quote:

Originally Posted by horst

maybe you want to ask why some people have little respect for him?

I don't completely understand this. He hasn't done anything particularly brilliant but he's also the leader of the opposition during a difficult time to be any part of the opposition and hasn't (until now) done anything overly retarded. Or did I miss him make a giant cock-up of something?

Last edited by Vital: 22-Jun-09 at 11:22am

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Turnbull will be lucky to see out the week if this AusCar shit hits the fan. Latest I heard on the news is that the mysterious email is a fake

edit: having said that it could go the other way and Swan will be in shit.

(no loss on either side)
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

Is being a merchant banker any worse than being a career politician or union leader?

Not especially, but I don't think it happens to make you any more qualified. Unless you happened to be employed by said merchant bank as an economist.

Turnbull is a lawyer by trade.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

Not especially, but I don't think it happens to make you any more qualified. Unless you happened to be employed by said merchant bank as an economist.

no, they're on the nose too now
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Although I don't necessarily hold having been a merchant banker (bit of an antiquated term now) against him, I can think of many reasons why I don't think the skills and experience are all that transferrable.

Very, very different activities (and I've worked with both). Lawyers seem to like becoming politicians and that is a bit more understandable.

But right now he seems to be a bit panicky and plotless (Goldman Sachs would have walked away from this project already).
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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst

no, they're on the nose too now

Very true.

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Originally Posted by gotamangina View Post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital


I don't completely understand this. He hasn't done anything particularly brilliant but he's also the leader of the opposition during a difficult time to be any part of the opposition and hasn't (until now) done anything overly retarded. Or did I miss him make a giant cock-up of something?

what makes this time difficult? I'd say this is a great time to be in opposition, when the economy is going down the drain hole.
There is a lot you can speculate on when you are not in government, but all we get from him, "no you're wrong, you're wrong because you're an idiot, I am much better"
For there to be substance you actually have to say something substantial.
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Litigious types used to getting their own way don't make for particularly good politicians imo.
But Australian politics has been rife with: Union hacks, Bureaucrats, Lawyers & property spivs for a long time now.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst

no, they're on the nose too now

So, why do you have so little respect for him? He's well educated, a successful businessman and hasn't made any mistakes in opposition (perhaps apart from this debacle). Sure, he's the richest man in politics, went to Sydney Grammar and worked at Goldman Sachs but I don't understand why this always comes up to his detriment. Do we really want our politicians to be giving us a fair shake of the sauce bottle or pretend to inadvertantly swear on public television to get in with the working class? Turnbull will never be PM but of all the Liberals I think I liked him the most because he was well educated and successful outside of politics.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dub DeLay

(Goldman Sachs would have walked away from this project already).

Yeah, after pocketing a break fee of $2.8 million for a week's "work" . . .
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

So, why do you have so little respect for him? He's well educated, a successful businessman and hasn't made any mistakes in opposition (perhaps apart from this debacle). Sure, he's the richest man in politics, went to Sydney Grammar and worked at Goldman Sachs but I don't understand why this always comes up to his detriment. Do we really want our politicians to be giving us a fair shake of the sauce bottle or pretend to inadvertantly swear on public television to get in with the working class? Turnbull will never be PM but of all the Liberals I think I liked him the most because he was well educated and successful outside of politics.

I've disliked him ever since he decided that his ego was the most important part of an Australian republic.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst

what makes this time difficult? I'd say this is a great time to be in opposition, when the economy is going down the drain hole.

Because even if you've been living under a rock you know that it's a global economic crisis and we're doing relatively well, we're not even technically in a recession. The Liberals went down in spectacular fashion in the last election which makes it difficult to draw on the successes of the Liberal party without bringing up the public dislike of Howard's government. He's pretty much starting from scratch with star players like Costello out of the picture (at least not doing anything positive) and Labor dominating federal and state politics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by horst

There is a lot you can speculate on when you are not in government, but all we get from him, "no you're wrong, you're wrong because you're an idiot, I am much better"
For there to be substance you actually have to say something substantial.

Lately I haven't been following politics closely but I thought Turnbull proposed incentives for businesses as opposed to a cash handout. There's really only so much you can do in opposition without the resources at your disposal that the government has, such as the treasury.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

I've disliked him ever since he decided that his ego was the most important part of an Australian republic.

I'm OK with ego in politics but I'm also a bit of a Keating fanboy so that could explain it.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

The Liberals went down in spectacular fashion in the last election which makes it difficult to draw on the successes of the Liberal party without bringing up the public dislike of Howard's government.

What makes it difficult to draw on the successes of the Liberal Party is the lack of successes.
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OzCar: Let's don't call it Utegate and say we did
I've only been following this one with one ear. The impression I had so far was that maybe Rudd had tried to "help a mate out", and it was all about to backfire on him thanks to Treasury lickspittle Godwin Grech and his unwillingness to lie under oath (the nerve!).

And then, a twist. The alleged email has reportedly been found, is apparently a fake, and Grech (who it seems is willing to lie under oath) is currently being waterboarded by the AFP. Anyone else see that coming? I sure didn't.

Quote:

The email at the centre of the OzCar affair has been found and is a fake, the ABC understands.

This morning Australian Federal Police officers executed a search warrant at the house of Treasury official Godwin Grech, whose evidence to a Senate inquiry on Friday ignited the OzCar scandal.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...22/2604632.htm
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I'm confused. Is it just me, or is this confusing?
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From the tweets coming out of question time, Hockey is a moron and Turnbull is fucked.

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Nah, not really that confusing.

Swan asked for some preferential treatment for a car owner to get finance.

Gretch claimed that happened.

Turnbull tried to use it to beat the government down.

Rudd asked Turnbull to produce the email.

No email to be found.

Gretch soon to be hanging by his testicles. Turnbull is going to be kicking himself for not doing at least some fucking due dilligence by actually having the email in his hot little hands before trying to stick it to the Government.

That's as far as I can see, anyway. Happy to be corrected.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

I'm OK with ego in politics but I'm also a bit of a Keating fanboy so that could explain it.

Keating was arrogant, but was a far better communicator. He had that rare ability to deliver the core of a complicated issue without sounding condescending.

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Originally Posted by gotamangina View Post

I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangoriously

Nah, not really that confusing.

Swan asked for some preferential treatment for a car owner to get finance.

Gretch claimed that happened.

Turnbull tried to use it to beat the government down.

Rudd asked Turnbull to produce the email.

No email to be found.

Gretch soon to be hanging by his testicles. Turnbull is going to be kicking himself for not doing at least some fucking due dilligence by actually having the email in his hot little hands before trying to stick it to the Government.

That's as far as I can see, anyway. Happy to be corrected.

The email has been found, but its apparently "fraudulent", and now KRudd is claiming that Turnball knew along
.



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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

From the tweets coming out of question time, Hockey is a moron and Turnbull is fucked.

was watching it on sky news, fucking hilarious.
turnbull looked like he was shitting himself throughout rudd's diatribe. Keven was playing the self-righteous screamer to perfection, although i was disappointed he didnt lay on a few tears just to fully get the effect.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Flathead_21

The email has been found, but its apparently "fraudulent", and now KRudd is claiming that Turnball knew along

the Treasury staffer, Godwin Grech, is boned at the very least

The interesting thing is, Liberal Senator Eric Abetz read the contents of the 'email' on Friday, but Turnbull claims he must have got the details from the newspapers, even though it wasn't published until Saturday.



be interesting to see if Turnbull can dodge the bullets. There are still questions on whether Swan gave the guy favourable treatment, but it will be overshadowed now to say the least.
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Last edited by CheelWinston: 22-Jun-09 at 12:56pm

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I'm curious to hear more about Grech's role in the thing. After Turnbull had allegedly bullied him into "not lying for his boss", was he in fact lying for the opposition? Conspirator, or just a fall guy?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston

the Treasury staffer, Godwin Grech, is boned at the very least

The AFP have raided his house:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...22/2604632.htm

Gruso, Grech was not the man bullied by Turnbull - the man bullied was Rudd's advisor who Turnbull thought was the sender of the forged email. Grech was the "recipient" of the forged email.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gruso

I'm curious to hear more about Grech's role in the thing. After Turnbull had allegedly bullied him into "not lying for his boss", was he in fact lying for the opposition? Conspirator, or just a fall guy?

Grech was not the guy allegedly bullied by Turnbull. That was apparently Andrew Charlton, economics advisor to Rudd. The 'email' was allegedly from Charlton, to Treasury.

Grech is a Treasury official who is now up to his top lip in it.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston

There are still questions on whether Swan gave the guy favourable treatment, but it will be overshadowed now to say the least.

Why?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs

The AFP have raided his house:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...22/2604632.htm

Gruso, Grech was not the man bullied by Turnbull - the man bullied was Rudd's advisor who Turnbull thought was the sender of the forged email. Grech was the "recipient" of the forged email.

Ah, the peril of following with one ear.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dub DeLay

Why?

why what?

Treasury mentioned John Grant in talks between them and Ford Credit when discussing rescue deals for car dealers, if Swan knew about this or instructed them to mention Grant then that's pretty dodgy.

[that part of the story i'm not 100% clear on but that's an approximation of what happened I think]

But that is clearly overshadowed by Turnbull calling for Rudd and Swan to resign on evidence that later was found fake.
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Why can't this all be sorted out with an old school gladitorial battle to the death?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston

why what?

Treasury mentioned John Grant in talks between them and Ford Credit when discussing rescue deals for car dealers, if Swan knew about this or instructed them to mention Grant then that's pretty dodgy.

[that part of the story i'm not 100% clear on but that's an approximation of what happened I think]

But that is clearly overshadowed by Turnbull calling for Rudd and Swan to resign on evidence that later was found fake.

Well if you are not 100% clear then how can you say there are still questions over Swan's role? As I understand it, there is plenty of evidence that John Grant got no more assistance than the others... this was a program to assist car dealers you know. I imagine that Swan's office was swamped with requests form car dealers for assistance, and those requests were passed on to Treasury. That happens every day in Govt.

It pisses me off that Turnbull is wasting Parliamentary time which I pay for over this rubbish.
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The latest: AFP want to speak with a Turnbull staffer about the email. awwwwww sheeeeeit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dub DeLay

Well if you are not 100% clear then how can you say there are still questions over Swan's role? As I understand it, there is plenty of evidence that John Grant got no more assistance than the others... this was a program to assist car dealers you know. I imagine that Swan's office was swamped with requests form car dealers for assistance, and those requests were passed on to Treasury. That happens every day in Govt.

It pisses me off that Turnbull is wasting Parliamentary time which I pay for over this rubbish.

i'm hearing more as this goes on. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to target Swan. just trying to see both sides of the argument.

apparently there were 6 or so representations made from MPs, Govt and non-Govt alike.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dub DeLay

As I understand it, there is plenty of evidence that John Grant got no more assistance than the others...

Allegedly

Swan and the Treasury are not releasing the information to the media to support there case.
.



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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston

The latest: AFP want to speak with a Turnbull staffer about the email.

Let me guess. It was all the staffer's doing and Turnbull had no idea.
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^^ yeah understand but don't go by news limited because it is showing over the top bias on this one.
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Yeah, it'll wind up being something like that.

'I had it on good faith that my staffer saw the email' or somesuch.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs

The AFP have raided his house:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...22/2604632.htm

Gruso, Grech was not the man bullied by Turnbull - the man bullied was Rudd's advisor who Turnbull thought was the sender of the forged email. Grech was the "recipient" of the forged email.

How do you forge an email? It is not like emails just show up in your inbox without email header and without human intervention. Was there an email? Who was the actual sender? Who was the actual sender pretending to be? Who wrote the email content? Who hit the "send" button?

Last edited by sydney3000: 22-Jun-09 at 02:01pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by sydney3000

How do you forge an email? It is not like emails just show up in your inbox without email header and without human intervention. Was there an email? Who was the actual sender? Who was the actual sender pretending to be? Who hit the "send" button?

my guess is it was a terrible lol-cut-n-paste effort.

which you could make look fine printed out on a sheet of paper, but would be easy to prove fake considering there wouldn't be a record of it being sent or received.
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My guess is it was a forwarded fake.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

Keating was arrogant, but was a far better communicator. He had that rare ability to deliver the core of a complicated issue without sounding condescending.

As in the case where he succinctly explained the complicated issue of tertiary education funding to a protesting uni student by telling them to "go and get a job"?

He was a good communicator in that he was quick witted, entertaining and didn't have to lower himself to shaking the sauce bottle of working families. I can't say i agree with you when you say he wasn't condescending or that the self-proclaimed world's best treasurer doesn't have an ego comparable to Turnbull's.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Moon

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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

Keating was arrogant, but was a far better communicator. He had that rare ability to deliver the core of a complicated issue without sounding condescending.

Keating not condescending? Fucking what?

Next you'll tell us that Rudd isn't beige or that Howard doesn't have big eyebrows.
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The staffer resigned two weeks ago for all your information.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

I can't say i agree with you when you say he wasn't condescending or that the self-proclaimed world's best treasurer doesn't have an ego comparable to Turnbull's.

At least as comparable an ego, but much funnier... and it seems, wiser.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie

Keating was arrogant, but was a far better communicator. He had that rare ability to deliver the core of a complicated issue without sounding condescending.

Its not arrogance if you actually know you are the best. He knew that.
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