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"Warping" tracks...

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Quote:

Originally Posted by base615

I

Beatmatching is not exactly rocket science and the most important part of DJing is playing quality music with good flow, quite frankly I couldn't give a shit how a DJ facilitates this.

This..........
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Agreed...however, if you're going to use Ableton to warp your tracks, why not just sack up, learn the full software, and play off Abelton.

If Beat matching isn't hard, why spend so much time warping tracks prior to burning CDs? It screams of someone who can't actually beat match, otherwise, like we all agree, it's not that hard and it's part of the fun, so why do it?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi

Agreed...however, if you're going to use Ableton to warp your tracks, why not just sack up, learn the full software, and play off Abelton.

If Beat matching isn't hard, why spend so much time warping tracks prior to burning CDs? It screams of someone who can't actually beat match, otherwise, like we all agree, it's not that hard and it's part of the fun, so why do it?


exactly, using abelton only to warp is pretty lame.

Just go ahead an edit or remix the whole track, at least you'd be doing something mildly creative.
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because you don't need ableton to warp tracks i would guess... i would say there are quite a few programs that can do it.

also, taking a laptop out to gigs is still a pain in the ass (at least it used to be) so if you are a software DJ sometimes it's more practical to just burn CD's.

I'm not saying it isn't retarded, because it is if they're a CD/vinyl DJ... but i wouldn't give a DJ stick for it, because then I'd just look like a tool.

different strokes for different folks... as i said originally, a great set isn't dependant on the DJ's ability to beatbatch, especially when there will be most often 3 fairly accurate beat counters at his/her disposal, don't lie, you all use them.
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lol, imagine having one control track on your left deck, and then beatmatching every other track in your crate to the control one, recording these beatmatched tracks to your pc, then playing the tracks via serato.

hahaha
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Quote:

Originally Posted by pEAkeR_hAT

lol, imagine having one control track on your left deck, and then beatmatching every other track in your crate to the control one, recording these beatmatched tracks to your pc, then playing the tracks via serato.

hahaha

oh god.

so wrong on so many levels
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bracko

different strokes for different folks... as i said originally, a great set isn't dependant on the DJ's ability to beatbatch, especially when there will be most often 3 fairly accurate beat counters at his/her disposal, don't lie, you all use them.

I honestly never look at the BPM display on the mixers, I can't even tell you how many decimal places they show (on say a DJM 800), and as for the display on the CDJ 1000's, it don't show ANY decimal places...two tracks saying 126BPM aren't going to be anywhere near exact, you still need your ear to get it right even if you use them as an initial guide.

And sure, a great set isn't dependant on the beatmatching, but as mentioned in another thread, if the beat matching is off constantly, it destroys flow and stops it from being a "great set" no matter how good your selection is. And as we've all agreed, it ain't that hard, so why remove it from the equation? What's to be gained from doing this? And if you're that dependant on everything being pressed to 126.45BPM so you can mix a set, what the hell do you do when you take over from another DJ?
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So cheating, yah? Cool...knock yourself out, I'll stick with manual, it's part of the fun, it's part of the learning process I think shouldn't be removed. Each to their own
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi

what the hell do you do when you take over from another DJ?

spin back?
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Yah...and honestly, I hadn't even thought about that! haha
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Who cares how they do it, seriously. If they put on a better show than you then you're the one doing something wrong. By refusing to keep up to speed with technology you're gonna be nothing more than a bedroom banger.

I don't think it's right either but that might be a small contributing factor as to why I don't play out...

Who am I kidding, I'm lazy as hell
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Playing out is well fucking over rated anyway
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I find this concept of fearing or hating people who've locked their tracks to a tempo using
Ableton pretty obscure!

Just cos you know you have two tracks that are the same tempo that means you can instantly "beatmatch" does it? I dont see how this cues you up accurately and allows you to pull things into time after launched? If you can't beat mix you still can't beatmix even if your tempos are already the same theres still a fair bit of manual manipulation required to actually do it! All it's really doing is speeding up a part of the process (or did you stop to think he may have done it (granted I don’t buy this being the guys motivation for a second) to actually make certain features on a CDJ usable-like auto looping-with all tracks based on the same tempo, loop lengths will then also be exact between all tracks even if they are pitched up or down? It would eliminate the issues you get with the loops not being locked to anything more accurate than +/-1bpm and actually mean that you could use them in the mix).

I think people who fixate on this whole automation of tasks is cheating idea are scared because it seems they feel beatmixing is the most powerful tool in their arsenal and it's intimidating them because we're running rapidly down a path to where the abilty to do it the oldschool way is becoming obsolete! The simple fact is even when we get there a great, stand-out, ultra epic and incomprehensibly stellar set is still going to be just that...and run of the mill, dime a dozen, lack lustre, uninventive is still gonna suck! Only difference will be it was serve on a differnet platter! (probably on no platter... Pun intended)

Some points to ponder if you wanna pursue this automation is "cheating" concept-Because based on your own logic you're probably already cheating yourself:

If you play you're track off a play button as opposed to manually manipulating a record, you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating!

If you back cue with a button as opposed to manually moving a needle and finding it by hand, you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating!

If you create loops on a CDJ or with software instead of using beat juggling style techniques - you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating

It's all relative people-what is now considered the norm or the holy grail """"industry standard-(my favourite term to hate ever)"""" was also at some point along the evolutionary cycle able to be considered to be cheating...

I wish people would spend more time to embrace all the technology that’s around us and find ways use it to expand their skill and creativity bases rather than fix yourself into your long established ways and blag people who can't replicate your limited set of manual techniques...

The way I see it if your abilities have limits (as everyones do-even the oldskool "do it all manually" masters-Craze, Q-Bert) don’t hate on other people who you percieve to have greater limitations! Cos you're both limited and all they have are different limitations!

Spend your time creating not forum hating!
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What is all this looping talk trav, all this music is just repetitive loops anyway isn't it?
Just cue your incoming track a little bit earlier
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

What is all this looping talk trav, all this music is just repetitive loops anyway isn't it?
Just cue your incoming track a little bit earlier

yeah-totally my point
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TravGTi

I find this concept of fearing or hating people who've locked their tracks to a tempo using
Ableton pretty obscure!

Just cos you know you have two tracks that are the same tempo that means you can instantly "beatmatch" does it? I dont see how this cues you up accurately and allows you to pull things into time after launched? If you can't beat mix you still can't beatmix even if your tempos are already the same theres still a fair bit of manual manipulation required to actually do it! All it's really doing is speeding up a part of the process (or did you stop to think he may have done it (granted I donít buy this being the guys motivation for a second) to actually make certain features on a CDJ usable-like auto looping-with all tracks based on the same tempo, loop lengths will then also be exact between all tracks even if they are pitched up or down? It would eliminate the issues you get with the loops not being locked to anything more accurate than +/-1bpm and actually mean that you could use them in the mix).

I think people who fixate on this whole automation of tasks is cheating idea are scared because it seems they feel beatmixing is the most powerful tool in their arsenal and it's intimidating them because we're running rapidly down a path to where the abilty to do it the oldschool way is becoming obsolete! The simple fact is even when we get there a great, stand-out, ultra epic and incomprehensibly stellar set is still going to be just that...and run of the mill, dime a dozen, lack lustre, uninventive is still gonna suck! Only difference will be it was serve on a differnet platter! (probably on no platter... Pun intended)

Some points to ponder if you wanna pursue this automation is "cheating" concept-Because based on your own logic you're probably already cheating yourself:

If you play you're track off a play button as opposed to manually manipulating a record, you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating!

If you back cue with a button as opposed to manually moving a needle and finding it by hand, you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating!

If you create loops on a CDJ or with software instead of using beat juggling style techniques - you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating

It's all relative people-what is now considered the norm or the holy grail """"industry standard-(my favourite term to hate ever)"""" was also at some point along the evolutionary cycle able to be considered to be cheating...

I wish people would spend more time to embrace all the technology thatís around us and find ways use it to expand their skill and creativity bases rather than fix yourself into your long established ways and blag people who can't replicate your limited set of manual techniques...

The way I see it if your abilities have limits (as everyones do-even the oldskool "do it all manually" masters-Craze, Q-Bert) donít hate on other people who you percieve to have greater limitations! Cos you're both limited and all they have are different limitations!

Spend your time creating not forum hating!

It's like they're living in the dark ages.

Burn them witches!!!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

It's like they're living in the dark ages.

Burn them witches!!!

Die in a fire.

It takes the average DJ like 15 seconds to beatmatch on CDJs...

For the sake of saving 15 seconds you risk:

* Sound degredation
* Changes in pitch and feel of the tracks
* being labeled a *%%*&

Sure if you wanna be richie hawtin, go get a fkn controller, press the sync button, layer and effect away... but IMO just fkn learn how to beatmatch on the CDJs... mmmmkay?
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So it's ok if Richie Hawtin does it?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by slackas

Die in a fire.

It takes the average DJ like 15 seconds to beatmatch on CDJs...

For the sake of saving 15 seconds you risk:

* Sound degredation
* Changes in pitch and feel of the tracks
* being labeled a *%%*&

Sure if you wanna be richie hawtin, go get a fkn controller, press the sync button, layer and effect away... but IMO just fkn learn how to beatmatch on the CDJs... mmmmkay?


You wanna start it?

* If you know what you're doing, minimal damage will occur when warping a track. Loads of DJ's use MP3's (talk about wak quality)
* You can still change pitch and feel of tracks (again, got to know what you're doing).
* Who give a flying fuck what some punk ass MoFO thinks.

Any means necessary to rock a crowd!
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yeah sure, we could take skill out of the equation, everyone is the same now, it's only fair
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

yeah sure, we could take skill out of the equation, everyone is the same now, it's only fair

beat matching is not much of a skill ffs!
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Honestly if you think that beatmatching constitutes a higher level of skill than making good use of technology to improve on the pretty basic act of making two tunes play in time, you need to check what year it is!

Yet more old man 'back in my day' stuff. I'm yet to hear a reasonable argument against the use of technology to progress the craft. Just more anti-progress, anti-tech sooking. In essence it seems like jaded dudes feeling threatened that they ain't so unique any more. You know, once upon a time people said the same things about reading.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

beat matching is not much of a skill ffs!

it all starts with beatmatching, flirts with mixed in key and ends with a full body swimsuit banned from the olympic pool
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

Any means necessary to rock a crowd!

Pls provide sample vid of you rocking croud... mmmkay...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

Honestly if you think that beatmatching constitutes a higher level of skill than making good use of technology to improve on the pretty basic act of making two tunes play in time, you need to check what year it is!

Yet more old man 'back in my day' stuff. I'm yet to hear a reasonable argument against the use of technology to progress the craft. Just more anti-progress, anti-tech sooking. In essence it seems like jaded dudes feeling threatened that they ain't so unique any more. You know, once upon a time people said the same things about reading.

I just dont believe its worth warping tracks when it takes like 15 seconds to beatmatch...

We arent talking about richie here, he uses traktor... we are talking straight people who warp tracks purely for CDJs to make it that 1% easier... why bother?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by slackas

I just dont believe its worth warping tracks when it takes like 15 seconds to beatmatch...

We arent talking about richie here, he uses traktor... we are talking straight people who warp tracks purely for CDJs to make it that 1% easier... why bother?

it takes longer to warp a track than it does to beatmatch, it wasn't meant to be like that, the technology is obviously flawed
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Quote:

Originally Posted by slackas

Pls provide sample vid of you rocking croud... mmmkay...

Are you comparing dick sizes?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

Are you comparing dick sizes?

No, im female.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by slackas

Pls provide sample vid of you rocking croud... mmmkay...

I usually don't beatmatch, I warp. But then I bypass the CD burn altogether - and I only play my own tunes... Is that a pass? Can post video But then I'm not really a DJ. It's amazing what you can get away with if you put LIVE after your name
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

Honestly if you think that beatmatching constitutes a higher level of skill than making good use of technology to improve on the pretty basic act of making two tunes play in time, you need to check what year it is!

Yet more old man 'back in my day' stuff. I'm yet to hear a reasonable argument against the use of technology to progress the craft. Just more anti-progress, anti-tech sooking. In essence it seems like jaded dudes feeling threatened that they ain't so unique any more. You know, once upon a time people said the same things about reading.


Amen Pro Tool!

Also Amen twelveBIT!

If you disagree with these guys you should take a moment actually have a long hard thing about how much more ability, innovation, creativity you can demonstrate compared to the guys who precede you and follow you...

Im guessing very little...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

You know, once upon a time people said the same things about reading.


Gahhh! What I wouldn't give to know what that said!
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But this is it - there are always those who focus on pushing an art forward and finding the bleeding edge, there are those who live for the status quo and then there's the vocal minority. To be true I reakon that the vast bulk of the anti-progress types are amongst the least educated with respect to what's available/possible. Ignorance clearly isn't all that blissful.
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I can't say much for people that warp tracks to use on CDJ's. That's pointless. However, dismissing something you don't understand fully is crazy. There are skills required to warp and mash and tune tracks in live or whatever else is out there. If you don't have the skills you will suck, just the same as lacking skills on CDJ.

This is such a pointless argument.
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playing LIVE would surely mean that you warp things live, like in real time in front of the audience?

I am confused
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

playing LIVE would surely mean that you warp things live, like in real time in front of the audience?

I am confused

you could if you were fast (could start a "live warping" contest and winner gets a gold plated MBP)

Pre warping gives you more time to be creative in the mix. So many more outcomes can be achieved with software when playing live. You can even create your own programs (if you have the skill that is) to do some incredible stuff to the tunes.

Why limit your creativity to a small skill set?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

you could if you were fast (could start a "live warping" contest and winner gets a gold plated MBP)

Pre warping gives you more time to be creative in the mix. So many more outcomes can be achieved with software when playing live. You can even create your own programs (if you have the skill that is) to do some incredible stuff to the tunes.

Why limit your creativity to a small skill set?

oh I aren't limiting myself to a small skill set, I think it's a bit rich that you might think that.

what you are saying is that a dj that beat mixes isn't playing live, but the guy that pre warps at home is live, because it's more creative if he uses a program that lets him do incredible stuff to the tunes?

Effectively, you are saying that software is more live than hardware, which seems quite wrong
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

oh I aren't limiting myself to a small skill set, I think it's a bit rich that you might think that.

what you are saying is that a dj that beat mixes isn't playing live, but the guy that pre warps at home is live, because it's more creative if he uses a program that lets him do incredible stuff to the tunes?

Effectively, you are saying that software is more live than hardware, which seems quite wrong

Depends on what "hardware" you are talking about. If it's just CDJ's then yes. Beat matching is live but man, anyone can do that after a few days of having a go at it.
What do you have over Reaktor, MAX/MSP or Audiomulch, not fucking much at all.
Out of curiosity what hardware are you talking about?

DJing has always been about pushing things to the limits, finding new ways to alter songs. Is placing tape on a record so it loops cheating?

Last edited by twelveBIT: 19-Feb-10 at 04:43pm

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hardware?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

Depends on what "hardware" you are talking about. If it's just CDJ's then yes. Beat matching is live but man, anyone can do that after a few days of having a go at it.
What do you have over Reaktor, MAX/MSP or Audiomulch, not fucking much at all.
Out of curiosity what hardware are you talking about?

I see what you did there, you are comparing dj equipment with music production software
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

I see what you did there, you are comparing dj equipment with music production software

these days the lines are blurred.

I can easily say that a sony walkman that has been modded to slow the tape speed up/down is dj equipment, just the same as reaktor, SL1200, mpc or some cdj's. Use anything, why limit yourself.
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Blurred for some, quite clear for others. Sony is a good choice, would love it if they came out with a megabass mixer.

No limiting here, have software can edit and do incredible things. No need to loop when you can make an edit. Make 8 edits and put them on the same cd. Hotcues, fastloops, whatever you call them, these edits can perform the function of both in real time. Burn two of them, one for each side.

Just because I might have beat warped something, no extra achievements have been unlocked, but hey look, I found a different way to remix tracks on the fly
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

Blurred for some, quite clear for others. Sony is a good choice, would love it if they came out with a megabass mixer.

No limiting here, have software can edit and do incredible things. No need to loop when you can make an edit. Make 8 edits and put them on the same cd. Hotcues, fastloops, whatever you call them, these edits can perform the function of both in real time. Burn two of them, one for each side.

Just because I might have beat warped something, no extra achievements have been unlocked, but hey look, I found a different way to remix tracks on the fly

Do you edit and burn your cd live?
This is my point, you can do your edits in software in real time with a controller/s. I could also have an mpc booming along to all this because I now have more time to be creative - that is what can be achieved.

Back in the day, Guitars were made without frets. Someone thought outside the big 'ol square one day and fretted it.
Guitarist were crying out that it is cheating. Now look at them.

Last edited by twelveBIT: 19-Feb-10 at 05:36pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

Do you edit and burn your cd live?
This is my point, you can do your edits in software in real time with a controller/s. I could also have an mpc booming along to all this because I now have more time to be creative - that is what can be achieved.

I did them at the same time that you warped and prepared your tracks. Both ways require prior preparation, leaving us both the same time to be creative.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

I did them at the same time that you warped and prepared your tracks. Both ways require prior preparation, leaving us both the same time to be creative.

You do whatever dude, as long as you are happy with the outcome
Warping dance music tracks takes me about 10 seconds a track, simple stuff. A bit longer off wax.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

But this is it - there are always those who focus on pushing an art forward and finding the bleeding edge, there are those who live for the status quo and then there's the vocal minority. To be true I reakon that the vast bulk of the anti-progress types are amongst the least educated with respect to what's available/possible. Ignorance clearly isn't all that blissful.


again ill run into the defense of macc4, and say most of that is total cobblers IMO.


there is 'pushing the technology to its limit art form bla bla bla' and then there is the reality that 90% of all Ableton DJ sets are a complete waste of time. all Djs are doing is playing some tunes, hopefully having a good time, and giving the same to the punters, since when has all Djing been about 'pushing the boundaries of art?'

Again, as i said in the other thread, all this new uber technology is giving you the ability to do is loop more tracks together and fuck round with more effects...great for some genres of dance music, effectively pointless for others. so people are just 'pushing the boundaries' (read cutting up more loops) because they can, not because it actually adds anything to the 'art' of DJing. Again, like i said in the other thread, there will always be room for cut-up loop artists, and the best will always be the best, but equally there is always room for people just mixing tops-tails of good tracks together and just playin some fukn music. Yes you can do both with Ableton, the former does take skill, the latter takes none.

This is also not a slight on people playing their own music in Ableton, i do the same. your music you can do wtf you like with it

i was in Berlin a couple of months ago. saw some guy in a bar just tops-tails some tracks together in Abelton, with midi controller, didnt even have headphones to cue, just played the tracks in line...boring to look at, boring to do, so its all music, but bollocks this notion, that somehow because he happens to be using 'the latest' technology, he is automatically pushing some mythical boundaries, or that people steadfastly keeping 'old school' are just old men keeping the archaic 'status quo'
hang on a minute, im on the potty doing poo





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I personally started out just plain syncing tracks with my controller and laptop.
After 3 weeks, i felt like i was already spending more time at a mates house using actual decks and beatmatching.
I then hated the fact i could just do something as simple as hit the sync button and beatmatch tracks, and sold my gear and bought decks.
Ultimatly what im getting at, is that its about how you feel with yourself using the technology and mixing. The average clubber doesnt give a fuck what your using, if you can stand up there and be happy about your sync button djing, then good for you, enjoy it.
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@ toilet trained,

why are you defending? What are you defending? Is it the unknown?
Yeah, I've seen dud DJ's on 1200's and CDJ's too. What's you point?
This simple beat matching you talk about is nothing these days. If you want to beat match use the 1200s.

There's very little difference between CDJ's and a laptop - Hardware and software, it's all digital, so why not make more use of that format with better software.
If you just want to mix one tune into another that's fine, but why criticise others for being different and claiming that they are cheaters and lacking in skill?
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