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Clone Bozak Rotary DJ mixer

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djmehdi +

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Clone Bozak Rotary DJ mixer
HI Guys,
I am thinking of building some BOZAK rotary DJ mixer clones, I want to make a copy of the Original CMA 10-2DL, with a complete discret signal path, basically just the fatest sounding rotary mixer, I was thinking of just having 4 input channels, with a switch for phono of CD.

What do you reckon, am I mad?
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Do you know what's involved? It sounds like an awesome idea
GrEnNo +

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Quote:

Originally Posted by djmehdi

HI Guys,

What do you reckon, am I mad?

now your not after saying that!!!!

I think you alittle over your head mate!!
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if you build it they will cum
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Yea its crazy, but I am an Pro Audio Electronic Tech (have been for years), so I repair and mod mixers and the like all the time, just trying to get a feel for if there would be any interest in it! I know what is involved, I am capable, it's just the time frame.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by djmehdi

Yea its crazy, but I am an Pro Audio Electronic Tech (have been for years), so I repair and mod mixers and the like all the time, just trying to get a feel for if there would be any interest in it! I know what is involved, I am capable, it's just the time frame.


ok well you did leave all that out in your opening statement. glad your not a lawyer!!!
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Yea I never thought i'd be any good at law.


Here is a pic of a french take on a compact Rotary mixer, looks cool.
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^ theo parrish used that mixer when he played at sugar last month

check out the wave forums for plenty of rotary talk. here's a thread on a DIY mixer u should be intersted in:

http://www.wavemusic.com/community/s...ad.php?t=10135
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Is there really that much of a point in going fully discrete?

I can't remember the site, but there are projects online where people have designed rotaries loosely based around the Bozak... Both fully discrete and with chips.

Oh, and the DJR400 sounds freekin awesome. If I were you and designing something of the sort I would want click-in cueing (ie. not like the Bozak, like a Pioneer) and the master isolator - only cos they are a lot of fun, and when tuned correctly sound awesome.

edit: Papanikolas beat me to the DIY rotary talk.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by djmehdi

Yea I never thought i'd be any good at law.


Here is a pic of a french take on a compact Rotary mixer, looks cool.

Excuse my ignorance, but are the top three EQ knobs for the master? And the channel knobs are volume; so there isn't a need for an xfader? And the little button looking thing above the volume knobs is like the PFL setting?

If so, looks damn well cool and probably mighty fun to use.
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i'd like a better mixer, and a rotary (as outlined above), but they just don't come cheap.

happysumo - the top three knobs are an ISOLATOR; Kinda like an EQ but not. In another thread I outlined what an isolator is, but essentially it's when the signal gets filtered into three sections (high-pass (ie. lows), band-pass (ie. mids) and high pass (ie. highs)) and then there's a volume control for each filtered band - thus a little different sounding to your standard EQ.
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Wow, Theo Parish used one! The wave Music link is full of helpful stuff.

As for the need to go full discrete, most mixers use chips, these are good and clean sounding, but bit by bit they will take away some of the tone and fatness form the music being put into them, the Idea of being totally discrete is really to ensure that what your playing thru the mixer sounds as big as it was intended too. The only reason its not done more is purely down to technology that means mixers can be cheaper and easier to construct but not quite sound as good as the originals.
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^No, that's not at all how discrete vs chips go, and if you are an electronics engineer you should know that. There are poor quality discrete parts and there are fantastic quality chips.
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^No, that's not at all how discrete vs chips go, and if you are an electronics engineer you should know that. There are poor quality discrete parts and there are fantastic quality chips.
__________________

Oh yes I know this, there are noisey resistors and there are quite resistors, there are high end audio chips and there are bog standard audio chips.
When I speak of making a mixer with discreet circuits, I intend to make it with the best hand picked components, if I wanted a mixer with good chips I would just buy one why bother making it a Allen & Heath Xone would be fine.
The other important thing with disreet circuits, is the inperfection they add extra harmonics to the audio, this brings deaph, colour and texture to sound, in my opinon this richness of sound is missing in lots of modern DJ mixers. Yes you can have a design using chips and still get good results, but I don't want to make any compromise with the audio path, this is the key.
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Then what do you anticipate to be the required spend on parts?
Are you intending this as a commercial product? If so, what do you anticipate the retail price to be?

It sounds to me like you need a feasability study. There will always be some market for this kind of product, but you are always working to a price point as well.
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Yea, the circuits are very simple, good quality caps and resistors are not expensive, im not sure about costing yet, I will make a 4 channel proto type, then think about cost of a commercial product, or offer it as a kit for the DIY market. I could see the casing being one of the most expensive single parts in the mixer. When I have a proto type up and running I will have a good mixing session the post the results :-)
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WWWWWOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSHHHHHH!!!!




Sorry, that was just 90% of this thread going miles over my head! Good luck to you though!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by djmehdi

Yea, the circuits are very simple, good quality caps and resistors are not expensive, im not sure about costing yet, I will make a 4 channel proto type, then think about cost of a commercial product, or offer it as a kit for the DIY market. I could see the casing being one of the most expensive single parts in the mixer. When I have a proto type up and running I will have a good mixing session the post the results :-)

I look forward to it.

Also, are you looking at having a separate power supply? That is an obvious way to bring down noise that is very rarely harnessed when it comes to DJ mixers.
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Here's a Bozak and info from Isonoe where they are building from the ground up for a customer.

http://www.isonoe.com/Isonoe%20Bozak%20CMA-10-2-DLC.PDF

If you can make this I'll buy it !
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Wow, looks good, the specs are high. The External Power supply is a great Idea.
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It seems to me, that if you are referring to the colour that old mixers have then discrete circuitry is not the key to your pursuit. Colour is often nothing more than distortion and you could easily achieve this by choosing carbon resistors over metal film. As with all circuits, implementation of the design is what determines the final outcome. Even the beloved UREI 1620 has numerous Texas Instruments, TL072 op amps, which are one the cheapest op amps available. There are a lot of respected British studio consoles from the eighties that also have these chips and those that mod them with higher spec devices will often revert back as they want THAT sound.

Op Amps, can sound superior if implemented correctly. Though some people prefer distortion as it's pleasing to ear of some listeners.

You can have the best mixer in the world with the most esoteric components, yet getting that signal through the myriad of components and converting that signal into an acoustic wave that doesn't bounce around a highly reverberant room is like a dog chasing it's own tail.

Good luck with your project!


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i'm just going to jump in here. and be a bozak fanboi.

i have a vestax pmc25 hooked up to 10" JBLs at home. nothing flash. i play off vinyl.

i plugged an oldschool bozak in, same plugs, same speakers, same records..

it sounded like gabriel was in the room with a choir of angels. i was stupidly flabbergasted at how FULLER, DEEPER, RICHER, WARMER it sounded.. i couldn't beleive it was the same setup.

without knowing all the ins/outs. the fact bozak has no ICs and newschool mixers do... and for the sound to have such a GULF between, amazes me.

if you are vestax, pioneer, a&h.. and you're making a mixer, do they just block out all concept of what is king and just do their own thing, or are they just having a flog?

its like pcb-containing mixers are the hydrogen-filled zepplins compared to the bozak-bike. new ain't always better on many levels.


i support your mission. i'm yet to buy my own bozak but its next thing on the list. Theo played on paradiselost's bozak when he was in town, sadar too.

FYI those DJR things are expensive, made to order too. BBC from these forums has one.
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oh and yeah. i'm sure some of you have searched the net and found the schematics for the bozak
i'd be keen to build one in collab
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I like the plan, it will take a lot of mucking around to get it right but i'm sure you'll have a ball building it....
The diference in sound between my 10 2DL and my 1620 is miles and it's due to the descrete setup but it wont be easy to get the mix of components perfect.....
I'm sure i would be interested in buying one off you if you sus it out, Kit form sounds like a good idea as well as it will keep the price down!!
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Thanks for the support guys, When I heard a Bozak I realised why it was the benchmark in sound quality for DJ mixers, I just very rare to find one and when you do the price is so high. A DIY kit form version will be an awsome solution.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

if you build it they will cum

Quote:

Originally Posted by kzzy View Post

The music that I push in my opinion is probably a bit too mature for someone who listens to "Trance" but hey, we all have to start somewhere?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by djmehdi

, When I heard a Bozak I realised why it was the benchmark in sound quality for DJ mixers.

no truer word has been said. that no other company comes close or even seems to try to get close or use it as their yardstick is FAIL
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Quote:

Originally Posted by djmehdi

HI Guys,
I am thinking of building some BOZAK rotary DJ mixer clones, I want to make a copy of the Original CMA 10-2DL, with a complete discret signal path, basically just the fatest sounding rotary mixer, I was thinking of just having 4 input channels, with a switch for phono of CD.

What do you reckon, am I mad?


As far as i know the Bozak schematics are not in public domain, so it would be illegal to do that. But i could be wrong regarding this. Even if you did do it, some of the parts are not available today and there are much better components available now.

These are the main reasons why i am creating a new high-quality DIY/Kit Bozak style Discrete mixer from scratch, I also want to add some of the features of modern mixers that i miss in the original Bozak design.

I'm the person on the wavemusic forum doing the discrete rotary DIY projects. If you want to check my project website for it, there are links to it on the wavemusic thread above.
Or go to w w w . B o z u r e . c o m

Last edited by pernu: 04-Mar-10 at 04:13am

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"the Idea of being totally discrete is really to ensure that what your playing thru the mixer sounds as big as it was intended too"

It's a lot easier to mess up the sound with a bad discrete design than a standard IC. Also replacing an active component in a discrete design with another that it wasn't designed for.


"Oh yes I know this, there are noisey resistors and there are quite resistors"

Resistor noise is actually the least important factor here. It's more about what material they are built of and how that affects the sound. Resistor values and where they are in the design is also important.


"good quality caps and resistors are not expensive"

A good high-quality resistor costs about US$1 - US$5 each depending on brand and model.


"It seems to me, that if you are referring to the colour that old mixers have then discrete circuitry is not the key to your pursuit"

Not 100% true ;-) It's mostly IC's symmetrical design that removes this. You can have a discrete design with this also if you want, remember that all ICs are built using discrete components inside. But resistor materials and values are also important.


It's also important to look at the complete design, it is possible to build nice sounding mixers with ICs like the TL074 if you know what you are doing. Just look at UREI 1620 and E&S DJR400.

Last edited by pernu: 04-Mar-10 at 02:44pm

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i'm intersted in a build. i'll have a look at the links. mixers are a big build. i'd in inclined to keep this as simple as possible.

Last edited by bonusbeats: 05-Mar-10 at 04:31pm

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Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but any updates o this?
spewingupknives - Is the other cdj used for putting two songs together?

KuRuPTeD - No thats the flux capacitators job.

The CDJ's are used to get it to 88mph.

spewingupknives - .....i cant find any of this simple information anywhere!!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by djmehdi View Post

HI Guys,
I am thinking of building some BOZAK rotary DJ mixer clones, I want to make a copy of the Original CMA 10-2DL, with a complete discret signal path, basically just the fatest sounding rotary mixer, I was thinking of just having 4 input channels, with a switch for phono of CD.

What do you reckon, am I mad?

You're mad as the parts necessary to make a Bozak what it is are no longer available. The objective of making one is to get that phat Bozak sound which is something you will never attain faithfully if you follow the original design as it's impossible.

Besides that, it's been done before over and over....

UREI 1620


RANE MP2016


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ALLEN & HEATH XONE:V6



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ALLEN & HEATH XONE:S6
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i would do so many unholy things for an S6
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TurntableTech View Post

You're mad as the parts necessary to make a Bozak what it is are no longer available. The objective of making one is to get that phat Bozak sound which is something you will never attain faithfully if you follow the original design as it's impossible.

Besides that, it's been done before over and over....

I know he would have to compromise on some components if you needed them to be available for every mixer he made but he could still do it if he wanted to, standardising the kits is essential but very difficult due to the unreliability of obtaining some of the components unless he bought them bulk (very expensive indeed)..
the aforementioned off the shelf mixers are not exactly built with the highest quality sound in mind although they all sound great they all had to compromise in the design to make the more dj friendly, but looking for a mixer for my home set-up I personally would sacrifice usability for sound quality any day!!

I think he would be better off building it as simple as possible (maybe 4 line channels, cue, master effects loop and probably unbalanced outputs) and not adding any EQ, isolator or phono cards as most people wanting such a mixer would be able to perchance there own external units if they need then... Plus people all have different tastes in these things and different turntables, carts, amps and speakers leading them to different conclusions to the resulting sound they hear!

But overall I think it’s a good idea, but it will be a very hard thing to design and way out of my capabilities!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Catdog69Kool View Post

i would do so many unholy things for an S6

Isn't the V6 even better due to the preamps?

Also, anyone tried an S2? Seems like a solid mixer for a solid price but I have heard it's a bit cramped. Then again, most if not all A&H mixers are cramped.
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Hi,
I have been working on this, the parts have been very easy to source (lots of modern equivalents). the circuit is quite simple. I hope to have a board ready by the early part of next year
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[quote=TurntableTech;394114426]You're mad as the parts necessary to make a Bozak what it is are no longer available. The objective of making one is to get that phat Bozak sound which is something you will never attain faithfully if you follow the original design as it's impossible.

Besides that, it's been done before over and over....

Don't be so negative, why is it impossible? its just a transistor based pre and a FET output. The idea of making the mixer is a low key DIY idea, not a mass produced mixer like the ones you pointed out. I think its a good Idea .
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Well i think it's a great idea and i wish you the best of luck, maybe i'll buy one of you for my collection!
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Did you ever do this?
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Pretty sure he died a couple of months ago.

RIP dj Mehdi
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WHat? Fuck that's shit.

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Yea he did, you can find plenty of articles and links on it on the net
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Hey Guys, Im all ok the Famous DJ Mehdi from france died not me, still very sorry to hear the news.
As for the mixer its shaping up nicely will add more in a few months!
Thanks, Mehdi.
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i love the sounds you got on soundcloud. good shit!

e: some farken seriously good shit man
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Thanks Spicy, most appreiciated.
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If anyone is interested, a V6 is for sale....

www.ebay.com.au/itm/190630745412
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I was watching that V6 but it sold for over $3300, a bit too much for me to put on the shelf but i'm sure it will be in a good home now!

Mehdi, How is the project going?
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Hi guys, I know this is an old thread, but away from this forum, Ive been looking up info on Bozaks & Urei's & seem to constantly end up linked back here. Ive registered to maybe quiz a few of you with experience of them on a few things...

Im buying/playing vinyl, but I also use Traktor Scratch Pro (I rip vinyl at 24bit wavs & use timecode vinyl) because I jump across to use its features for edits & things on the fly etc (currently using a rotary version of the Rane Empath).

At some point, I want to upgrade, but dont know if the Urei & Bozak will sound like shit with digital sources? Im kinda drawn to the E&S DJR400 (saves a few quid having to buy an isolator on top) & Urei 1620 due to my setup using 3 phono/3 line. I guess the Bozak wouldnt cater for that without some kind of rebuild/customisation. Regardless of source, wouldnt any of those 3 mixers improve the sound quality in comparison to what I currently use?

Last edited by soundslikeSTE: 20-May-12 at 06:11pm

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Go the E&S you won't be dissapointed - and it takes up very little space / is pretty portable too
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