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Vinyl Practice Methods

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^Cheers pEAkeR, I now know that my anti skate is fukt lol, and it forced me to have a look for a single sided record..so I found my copy of Moodymann long version of "I Can't Kick This Feeling"..with the Stevie Wonder sample in the breakdown..Win.

I reckon those videos are really helpful! It's alot of technical stuff we never take for granted, after 10 and 9 years my Technics (1 1200 and 1 1210 MK3) are still going strong, but could do with their first service haha. I bet he has videos for that as well..might give the decks a "James Nice One" overhaul this weekend.

OP, I always found with Stantons (all the ones I have used anyway, up to STR8s) that any platter touching or pushing down on the record will give a lot more drag and "restart" time than Technics..maybe the drives are weaker, I don't know.

It's really important with the Stantons to use the pitch to speed up and down instead of putting friction on the platter or pressing on the record. It might be a bit harder at first, but if you can nail that from the start, you have got it made mate..also helps to force you to rely on your ears, which are really the main thing you need to utilise!!

By then though, vinyl will probably be illegal and we will all have to use Ableton or Iphones to mix.

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How the fuck a tiny little needle bouncing around in those tracks produces music I'll never know...the age I am, I actually understand the concept of a laser reading digitial information from a CD and reproducing music than I do records!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Edstacee

OP, I always found with Stantons (all the ones I have used anyway, up to STR8s) that any platter touching or pushing down on the record will give a lot more drag and "restart" time than Technics..maybe the drives are weaker, I don't know.

It's really important with the Stantons to use the pitch to speed up and down instead of putting friction on the platter or pressing on the record. It might be a bit harder at first, but if you can nail that from the start, you have got it made mate..also helps to force you to rely on your ears, which are really the main thing you need to utilise!!

By then though, vinyl will probably be illegal and we will all have to use Ableton or Iphones to mix.

Yeah I found that they can almost stop with a little to much pressure!! i have been riding the pitch pretty well and think i have the tracks beat-matched but then when I stop riding the pitch it tends to wander a fraction. How long should i ride the pitch for??? all the way until I have completely bought in the new track??

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Originally Posted by pEAkeR_hAT

Yeah, I never bothered setting mine up correctly either, i just used to pile on the weight if they skipped lol,

I don't know if i can do anything else but pile the weight on with the t.60's. They have no anti-skating or height adjustment and when i set the tone arm to "float" then adjust the weight for the cartridge it skips like anything
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi


How the fuck a tiny little needle bouncing around in those tracks produces music I'll never know...the age I am, I actually understand the concept of a laser reading digitial information from a CD and reproducing music than I do records!

hehe! easy man, see those little grooves there? they are like the physical representation of a WAV file. just imagine each side of the groove is your left and right channels of a stereo WAV recording needle runs through grooves which make it vibrate, vibrations are converted to electric signals, electric signals get amplified, speakers start pumping da chewns.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Whip26

Yeah I found that they can almost stop with a little to much pressure!! i have been riding the pitch pretty well and think i have the tracks beat-matched but then when I stop riding the pitch it tends to wander a fraction. How long should i ride the pitch for??? all the way until I have completely bought in the new track??



I don't know if i can do anything else but pile the weight on with the t.60's. They have no anti-skating or height adjustment and when i set the tone arm to "float" then adjust the weight for the cartridge it skips like anything

ride all the way until the end if you need to! one hand on the pitch, the other on the mixer. this is how a lot of house DJs do it, but i mean if you can get a perfect match really quickly (which you will with a lot more practice) then no problemo!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Whip26

How long should i ride the pitch for??? all the way until I have completely bought in the new track??

All the way throughout "the mix" if you need to! Vinyl can fluctuate in BPM a bit for many reasons, poorly pressed, decks old/worn and just not holding pitch 100%, just keep your ear trained on the speakers and a hand on/near the pitch for as long as you need.

It's actually not that often you'll see people pre cue a track, and never have to adjust throughout the mix, especially if it's a long mix
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Whip26

Yeah I found that they can almost stop with a little to much pressure!! i have been riding the pitch pretty well and think i have the tracks beat-matched but then when I stop riding the pitch it tends to wander a fraction. How long should i ride the pitch for??? all the way until I have completely bought in the new track??



I don't know if i can do anything else but pile the weight on with the t.60's. They have no anti-skating or height adjustment and when i set the tone arm to "float" then adjust the weight for the cartridge it skips like anything


I've had no issue with touching the platter, I find by putting little bits of pressure on the rim you can control the record quite well. You can be firmer than the 1200s which is good when you're drunk!

I find that 1200s tend to be more sensitive to touch and often go too far either way when I try to adjust.

That being said, the pitch on the 1200s is much more accurate, unless it has been beat to shit (which is often the case!!)
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi





How the fuck a tiny little needle bouncing around in those tracks produces music I'll never know...the age I am, I actually understand the concept of a laser reading digitial information from a CD and reproducing music than I do records!

Well the needle vibrates in the grooves with the "highs" and "lows" making it vibrate at certain frequencies which gives off a noise (sound). It's sensitive as fuck so that's how it works

Still well cool how it all works.
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This thread is making me hard

I thought I was alone in my stubborn vinyl love
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReturn

I've had no issue with touching the platter, I find by putting little bits of pressure on the rim you can control the record quite well. You can be firmer than the 1200s which is good when you're drunk!

I find that 1200s tend to be more sensitive to touch and often go too far either way when I try to adjust.

That being said, the pitch on the 1200s is much more accurate, unless it has been beat to shit (which is often the case!!)


Ok I have ST.150's also, and they have monsterous torque, but the OP only has T60;s, which have very little torque, you can't touch the t60's at all, they suck so bad its not funny



And Spicy, why are you saying that you need to know every record as they respond differently ? Thats the biggest load of BS i'v ever heard,
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what? where did i say that?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by pEAkeR_hAT


And Spicy, why are you saying that you need to know every record as they respond differently ? Thats the biggest load of BS i'v ever heard,

I said that.

No, not every single record responds differently to every single other record, but enough of them do that you should be aware of it.

You might not play old records, but if you do, you’d notice that there is loads of variability.

Vinyl can be different weights
They can be pressed at different volume levels.
They can have small holes that require more pressure to manipulate
They can have largerrs holes and are thus quick to respond to the lightest tough
They can be warped to varying degrees
They can have crackles and skips depending on their condition.
Some records have cue burn at the start and you may need mix from a different point on the record.
Then there is of course the different sizes - you’ve got 12s, LPs, 10 inches and 45s with big holes and small hole – each needs to be manipulated differently

Its not like if you’re playing CDs and you press the button and it works just as it did the last time. Thats what I'm trying to say.

You need to know the differences in quality, just as you know when and where to mix in a track or you will get caught out.
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Last edited by TheReturn: 07-May-10 at 03:19pm

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/\ Word. Every record has it's quirks.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReturn

I said that.

No, not every single record responds differently to every single other record, but enough of them do that you should be aware of it.

You might not play old records, but if you do, youd notice that there is loads of variability.

Vinyl can be different weights
They can be pressed at different volume levels.
They can have small holes that require more pressure to manipulate
They can have largerrs holes and are thus quick to respond to the lightest tough
They can be warped to varying degrees
They can have crackles and skips depending on their condition.
Some records have cue burn at the start and you may need mix from a different point on the record.
Then there is of course the different sizes - youve got 12s, LPs, 10 inches and 45s with big holes and small hole each needs to be manipulated differently

Its not like if youre playing CDs and you press the button and it works just as it did the last time. Thats what I'm trying to say.

You need to know the differences in quality, just as you know when and where to mix in a track or you will get caught out.


Yeah true, also, i might be asking a really NOOB question, but what is the difference between an LP and a regular 12 ? I thought LPs (long plays) were just 4 or 5 vinyl in one package ? Or do u mean like old-school "band" records with like 5 songs a side?
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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ahaha "old school band records"

LPs are albums basically. Anyone who puts out an album on vinyl is putting out an LP. They can have multiple records or just one. Double, triple or quaruple LPs are usualy better, because you've got more space for each song.
- The reason I say you need to treat these differently is due to the amount of space a song takes up.

12 is just short for 12 inch single.
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Fuck yeah this thread is getting some love!! I have picked up a shit load of really good little tips! it is hard when the only other person you know who plays vinyl lives 2500 kms away!! Those pictures of the grooves give you a better understanding why you need to keep your records and stylus clean, look at the size of the dust when it is in the grooves!!! reminds me of that movie honey I shrunk the kids! keep the good advise coming, I am going record shopping this weekend any cleaning products anyone recommends ?
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Originally Posted by Whip26

I am going record shopping this weekend any cleaning products anyone recommends ?

i like this stuff



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Quote:

Originally Posted by tony d

This thread is making me hard

I thought I was alone in my stubborn vinyl love

255 records and counting, with many of those being multiple vinyl releases. Too bad I cant mix for shit, haha! I mostly just listen to tunes here and there now, too lazy, impatient and stubborn to learn to mix, even though I'd love to. Downing booze almost every night doesn't make it easier either. *Gets another wine and strokes his favourite record: http://www.discogs.com/Outside-Agenc...elease/705506*
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Great thread, I've been trying to focus more on riding the pitch lately as, up until now, I have been slowing down the record by slightly touching the inside of the record or the platter. After attempting it for a few mixes I can see why it is better to learn pitch riding as opposed to the methods I've been using.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReturn

ahaha "old school band records"

LPs are albums basically. Anyone who puts out an album on vinyl is putting out an LP. They can have multiple records or just one. Double, triple or quaruple LPs are usualy better, because you've got more space for each song.
- The reason I say you need to treat these differently is due to the amount of space a song takes up.

12 is just short for 12 inch single.


Sorry i still don't understand why you treat them differently ? Most of my 12's are just one song a side, but the ones i have which have more songs per side, i still drop the same ?
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that’s terrible spastic
also I would imagine a little disheartening that he has never attempted to drug rape you?

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^^^

the more space a track has, the greater fidelity (and often volume) it can accommodate

always go for a 45 release over a 33 is possible
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Quote:

Originally Posted by pEAkeR_hAT

Sorry i still don't understand why you treat them differently ? Most of my 12's are just one song a side, but the ones i have which have more songs per side, i still drop the same ?


What funkedub said.

But remember, I'm not being prescriptive here.

That was just a small example out of many I used to highlight the overall variety of vinyl.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkedub

^^^

the more space a track has, the greater fidelity (and often volume) it can accommodate

always go for a 45 release over a 33 is possible

Most records I buy are 4 trackers so they are always 33. It makes no difference at all.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkedub

^^^

the more space a track has, the greater fidelity (and often volume) it can accommodate

always go for a 45 release over a 33 is possible


True,

also,

Most annoying thing ever = waiting to drop a track and realizing its still on 33rpm and then having to wait to drop it again lol
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that’s terrible spastic
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict

Most records I buy are 4 trackers so they are always 33. It makes no difference at all.


Then it's clear you've already damaged your hearing.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Whip26

How long should i ride the pitch for??? all the way until I have completely bought in the new track??

Til it's right..not everything needs a technical answer. If it trainwrecks, keep riding.

I remember reading an interview years ago with DJ Fergie (no no, not that ice head bitch from Blackeyed Peas), who was trained (in sorts lol) by Tony De Vit..he said that Tony would listen to his mix tapes til he heard the pitch bend during a mix (as in fingers being used to speed up or slow down the record). He would then throw the tape out the window, the point being to encourage use of the pitch control to fix the mix instead of touching the vinyl.

These days, I kind of like to hear it bend out a bit though, proves that the DJ isn't some Ableton knob jock that pre programmed everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mireyleese

Drink lots and you will have heaps of fun. He puts on quite the show, definatly not a dj to watch for song selection and technical skills, but great music to just go crazy and jump around to :]

(on Steve Aoki)


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkedub

Then it's clear you've already damaged your hearing.

No, it's not clear. I've got one track on 7" vinyl @ 45, 12" vinyl @ 33 and then on a CD and it sounds the same on all three. No hearing damage. Speeding up the RPM doesn't mean shit honestly. It's just so they can fit more time onto the record, that's it. Good needles can pick up the quality no matter what.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict

No, it's not clear. I've got one track on 7" vinyl @ 45, 12" vinyl @ 33 and then on a CD and it sounds the same on all three. No hearing damage. Speeding up the RPM doesn't mean shit honestly. It's just so they can fit more time onto the record, that's it. Good needles can pick up the quality no matter what.


Well we can only conclude that either you really have damaged your hearing, you're delusional or you listening to music that has a limited dynamic range. (or that track just sounds shit no matter what format it's in )

If you want proof, then take some time to do some reading from people who know their shit (and aren't comparing :

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http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/3345e.html
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I don't get how a 45 is better than a 33?

If it's spinning faster, won't that mean more grooves per side, and more grooves mean spacing is closer together, which means inferior quality? I thought the less amount of info on a disc, the better...like a 6min track spread across one side of a 12" is going to have better quality than a 12" with 3 x 6min tracks on it.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi

I don't get how a 45 is better than a 33?

If it's spinning faster, won't that mean more grooves per side, and more grooves mean spacing is closer together, which means inferior quality? I thought the less amount of info on a disc, the better...like a 6min track spread across one side of a 12" is going to have better quality than a 12" with 3 x 6min tracks on it.

It doesn't mean more grooves per side, because 45 speed 12 inches it generally only have 1 or 2 songs.

At 33/3 you can have around 25 mins of music per side
Whereas 45s normally have around 11 mins max per side even though they can accommodate more.

Most dance music tracks don't need the whole 25 mins of a 33/3 so they use 45 and spread the song across the whole side. - thus the greater space = greater quality like you said in your post.

Even if you can't actually tell the difference with your own ears, the science behind it all suggests otherwise.
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The 45 has to travel further between beats, so there is slightly more room for the extra details between those beats.
Also, when the record is travelling faster --> stylus vibrates more --> more volume
Thick vinyl will generally have a better bass response than thin vinyl
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Yeah but all these idiots claiming i have bad hearing are seeming to forget that while most of the records I have are 4 trackers and are pressed at 33, the tracks are never longer than 6 minutes, and are usually between 4.30 and 5.30. Do not make assumptions etc.
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Nah man, they probably just looked at your discogs profile
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReturn

It doesn't mean more grooves per side, because 45 speed 12 inches it generally only have 1 or 2 songs.

At 33/3 you can have around 25 mins of music per side
Whereas 45s normally have around 11 mins max per side even though they can accommodate more.

Most dance music tracks don't need the whole 25 mins of a 33/3 so they use 45 and spread the song across the whole side. - thus the greater space = greater quality like you said in your post.

Even if you can't actually tell the difference with your own ears, the science behind it all suggests otherwise.

Cool...makes sense, just wasn't picturing it right.

How come more 12" dance singles aren't 45 RPM then? I can safely say, of the 5-6 crates of singles I have, there's easily way more 33's tha 45's...probably a 70/30 ratio, at a guess.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi

Cool...makes sense, just wasn't picturing it right.

How come more 12" dance singles aren't 45 RPM then? I can safely say, of the 5-6 crates of singles I have, there's easily way more 33's tha 45's...probably a 70/30 ratio, at a guess.

Not sure why.

Id say it'd be about 50/50 in my 12 inch collection.
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Yeah, I think a lot of my breaks are 45's, but most of the house/prog is 33...go figure...made me always think 33 was the better option for quality.
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If 33 was better quality, everything would be pressed at that I'd assume. Why waste space on a record pressing it at 45 if it sounds better and can fit more in at 33?
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Because it's irrelevant! A 72 rpm will sound fine too. If your needles are good and you have a quality tone arm, it wont matter.
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It's not irrelevant, there is science and logic, not to mention ears that support these facts derelict

also, it's 78 rpm
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Meh whatever. Enjoy only buying tracks that are pressed a certain way and missing out on awesome tracks cause they are pressed at an 'inferior' RPM, while the rest of us will enjoy everything we can.
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there is some explanation of why the speeds are the way they are in this book



its something quite trivial as far as I can remember. I will check out out when I get home and report back.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict

Meh whatever. Enjoy only buying tracks that are pressed a certain way and missing out on awesome tracks cause they are pressed at an 'inferior' RPM, while the rest of us will enjoy everything we can.



who said anyone was not buying something or missing out? Facts are facts dude, if you don't know them, don't argue them!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict

Meh whatever. Enjoy only buying tracks that are pressed a certain way and missing out on awesome tracks cause they are pressed at an 'inferior' RPM, while the rest of us will enjoy everything we can.


When having a dig for new vinyl i've put selections back because the pressing wasn't up to scratch (lol ... scratch). A lot of baile and baltimore seems to suffer from this)

There's numerous elements that go into making a decent pressing ... the speed is one factor.


I have more than a few 12" that are cut ar 45 on one side and 33 on the other ... and whaddya know, i often have to tweak the gain when i flip sides. (but yes, i still buy them)
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Wouldn't having to adjust the gain have more to do with the way a track was mastered / it's levels than the spacing of the grooves?

Just wondering.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SlicyDicer

Wouldn't having to adjust the gain have more to do with the way a track was mastered / it's levels than the spacing of the grooves?

Just wondering.


have you ever noticed how a track will get a little bit louder when you pitch it up on a turntable? Think of 45 as 33 +33%
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkedub

I have more than a few 12" that are cut ar 45 on one side and 33 on the other ... and whaddya know, i often have to tweak the gain when i flip sides. (but yes, i still buy them)

I've got some like that, too...usually 3 tracks...single track on the 45 side, 2 tracks on the 33

And yeah, Derelict, I don't think anyone is not buying a track because "Oh, you only have the 33 version?!?!" *rolls eyes* we're just discussing it.

TheReturn - I've read that book, but I don't really recall anything mentioned about the sound quality VS varying speeds, just the progression from 4min long shellac through to slowing the speed down and getting the 20+mins on a 12"...maybe I'm just having a goldfish memory though!
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The argument dates back to audiophiles in the 1970's, maybe even earlier http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/3345e.html
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I only have one 33rpm record but it is so awesome that i will forgive it for being 33 rpm,

A side = Voodoo People (Pendulum remix)

B Side = Smack my Bitch up (Subfocus remix) + Outer Space (Prodigy mix)


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi

TheReturn - I've read that book, but I don't really recall anything mentioned about the sound quality VS varying speeds, just the progression from 4min long shellac through to slowing the speed down and getting the 20+mins on a 12"...maybe I'm just having a goldfish memory though!

yeah I don't think it had anything to do with sound quality at the time either, it was an entirely practical reason as far as I can remember.

Anyway at the time the only format that went at 45rpm were 7 inch singles. 45rpm 12 inches didn't come about until the mid seventies disco period.
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