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the future of djing.

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Tim-BO +

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the future of djing.
well this is sure to a thread with much intense discussion. im talking of course about digital djing as apposed to more tradtional methods such as cds and vinyl.

coming for a non dj perspective, whats so wrong with learning on something like a vci or an s4? the time taken up by beatmatching is gone simply by pressing "sync", allowing more creative possibilities to come forth. also, as far as i know anyway, at the recent NAMM expo there was not a lot of cd or vinyl oriented equipment on show hence in the future digital may be the only choice.

on the other hand using traditional methods allow the dj to effectively learn from the base up not missing anything. it is also a lot simpler for the beginner. there is a lot said about being able to beatmatch (an art the whole dj profession is essentially built around) and those not able to are treated as noobs, so maybe for a quiet life it would be advantageous to learn with cds.

so what do you chose? the creativeness of an ean golden or someone like sven vath or ricardo villalobos who churn out "simple" but amazing sets with nothing but some vinyl and a mixer. not this may seem a bit david vs goliath but to their audiences they are viewed the same.

have your say guys and remember i have intended to remain neutral in this debat
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My two cents. And something I've noticed while clubbing recently. Is if you take out the time it takes to beatmatch, that time is rarely used creatively. All that happens is that the Dj using auto sync gets bored and drops in another track after 2 mins, then another after another two minutes. Producers make tracks so try build and soften. But nowadays tracks get no space to develop in a mix.

IMO.
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^expanding on balls,

i feel you can't really be that creative when you just sync, you miss a vital bit of 'connection' in the music
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i hear where you guys are coming from loud and clear, but and there always is a but look at these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8eB83axVvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4DUUDw3mww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5IfY1IBbh4

i would definitely call this creative
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you obviously wouldnt go to that extent in a club though but you get my drift i hope
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There is nothing wrong with learning to DJ on something like a VCI or S4 as long as your not being a juke box and just pressing play.
"DJ's" who grow up (in a sense) using the sync button are frowned upon because there is an expectation that the minimum skills needed to be called a DJ is beatmatching.

If a DJ can justify using the sync button because he/she/they fill the set with tricks/loops/effects/remixing as oppose to just standing there like a fucking idiot with their hands in the air, by all means.
Touring internationals on the other hand have a tendency to use the sync button. HOWEVER, they are also usually armed with a whole setup of effects and controllers which they use throughout their sets.

I learnt how to DJ using Turntables but ended up selling them because I simply couldn't afford to continue purchasing records. That said I bought an S4 because CDJ's are far too expensive. Now, I've learnt how to use loops & effects to make my sets more interesting. I still don't use the sync button tho.

As far as the future of DJing is concerned. I think it looks bright. I'm all for creativity and as Traktor and Serato continue to improve their compatibility with various controllers and effects unit the possibilities look endless.
I would be great if Turntables could once again thrive in the industry but with the costs involved in piecing together a turntable along with the cost of manufacturing record, I can't see it lasting forever.

There will always be wankers in the scene simply sitting at the decks pressing play then just standing there for 5 mins till the next track needs to be cued up...I just hope the scene is able to weed them out cause they have no place in DJing. IMO anyway.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim-BO View Post

well this is sure to a thread with much intense discussion. im talking of course about digital djing as apposed to more tradtional methods such as cds and vinyl.

coming for a non dj perspective, whats so wrong with learning on something like a vci or an s4? the time taken up by beatmatching is gone simply by pressing "sync", allowing more creative possibilities to come forth. also, as far as i know anyway, at the recent NAMM expo there was not a lot of cd or vinyl oriented equipment on show hence in the future digital may be the only choice.

on the other hand using traditional methods allow the dj to effectively learn from the base up not missing anything. it is also a lot simpler for the beginner. there is a lot said about being able to beatmatch (an art the whole dj profession is essentially built around) and those not able to are treated as noobs, so maybe for a quiet life it would be advantageous to learn with cds.

so what do you chose? the creativeness of an ean golden or someone like sven vath or ricardo villalobos who churn out "simple" but amazing sets with nothing but some vinyl and a mixer. not this may seem a bit david vs goliath but to their audiences they are viewed the same.

have your say guys and remember i have intended to remain neutral in this debat



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Dude looks like he should be head banging in a heavy metal band

Will agree that it's great for producers who want to play stuff live but not my cup of tea mainly though because I never really like to pre plan anything and to be honest a whole set of that kind of chopping and changing would make me want to kill





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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim-BO View Post

i hear where you guys are coming from loud and clear, but and there always is a but look at these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8eB83axVvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4DUUDw3mww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5IfY1IBbh4

i would definitely call this creative

Dunno if I'd call that djing. Seems kinda like the DMC. Undanceable showboating..... still pretty cool though.

This may sound elitist but in the days of vinyl, the whole learning the beatmatch took forever. It kinda culled all of the people who wanted to dj just to be cool. Kinda seperated the wheat from the chaff. Whereas now anyone can be a jesus posse masiah
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Last edited by Balls Deep: 20-Jan-11 at 09:56pm

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Everyones a DJ now, my 16 year old neice has just over $3,000. worth of (Denon) DJing equipment sitting in her bedroom that she uses everyday to muck around with. The future of DJing is the fact that now anyone can beatmatch/transform/beat-switch and with the internet it doesn't take much to master a specific DJing skill. What that means for everyone else is those days have arrived when little kids with state of the art DJing equipment chip in together and are hiring out venues, hiring security to run pay as you enter parties marketed through viral marketing on facebook and earning a shitload more money in one night than the previous generation had ever earned in a month.

Nobody gives a shit about DJing these days, the Asian community have the latest of everything in DJing and to them its nothing, its just like owning an Iphone.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Balls Deep View Post

This may sound elitist but in the days of vinyl, the whole learning the beatmatch took forever. It kinda culled all of the people who wanted to dj just to be cool. Kinda seperated the wheat from the chaff. Whereas now anyone can be a jesus posse masiah

Sums it up perfectly

The art of DJing is about matching the tunes you have to the people in the room. Building a mood, giving quality tracks room to breathe, taking the crowd somewhere and doing it seamlessly. If you rely on a machine for any of the skilled element you are halfway to handing the job to a nightlife computer.
Ultimately it's what passes through the speakers that counts
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If only people put in the effort in club nights that goes along with the explosion in numbers in DJing... (I mean decor, lights/lasers, promotion, location etc)
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i was just thinking. if someone coming into the dj scene wanted to learn i would think they would assume that they would think that using mp3s and software would be the norm as things like cds are being used less and less in "other areas of life" for lack of a better phrase
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i dont care, just play better music please /end
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim-BO View Post

there is a lot said about being able to beatmatch (an art the whole dj profession is essentially built around) bat


no.

beat matching is a basic, simple, easy skill learnt with practice. It helps you to mix, but it is not an artform nor is DJing built around it.



It is the pre-occupation of some stoopid debates though. Just because you bought some gear and learnt to beat match doesn't mean you're now a DJ.

I hesitate to call myself a DJ as it is. I was just some guy with a vinyl collecting problem and decided to do something fun with it all.


I'm taking a snippet from a post of mine from a similar thread ...

<snip>Yes, we focus on the music ... but some of us also focus on developing a skill set . One of the tools in you kit of skills should be the ability to pull out any tune at any time and find a way of making a coherent mix from another track. Being a slave to autosync won't help with developing this skills ... hence your skillset will be lacking compared with those who don't resort to or use autosync. </snip>



The required skillset has changed as well as the kit it's done with ... the simple fact of the matter is that with today's technology, the skillset actually required is next to nothing. I'm not saying that's good or bad in itself ... but it sure as hell has spawned a generation of average DJs who simply bought some toys (or their parents did), almost instantly acquired a music collection from online and call themselves a DJ.


Even the task of acquiring a collection of music is different. I think this factor is often over looked, because people concentrate on the technology. The time and energy required to put a collection together today is fuk all compared to the era when you'd have to go to your local record store(s) and dig ... if only 5 copies of a track made it into the shops in a city ... then only 5 DJs could play that track. Now every "DJ" can.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pomrocks View Post

i dont care, just play better music please /end

this ^^^
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I'd rather see someone playing vinyl, it shows they at least have a passion towards paying for music.
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I never got this "more time to be creative" line. The track is a complete work. The producer intended it go out that way. I get you might think it could be improved in some way but why not edit the track or remix it? Refine it in the studio and then take it out and drop it.
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i nearly went and sold all my cdjs and mixer to get the whole s4 train ride but i had a big think about it and would seem kind of boring just looking at a computer screen and djing off a little system. i mean its great for some people but in my eyes you would loose the sense of djing then going to syncing and cue point, for me too it would loose the whole energy and vibe you get from selecting the tune playing and beatmating. here is something that i think the reason people are pissed in a way is that all these new comers are using sync and all the people that learnt on vinyl and cdjs feel like they get short changed in a way because ppl aint taking the time that they did to learn the art of beatmatching and contructing sets and such.
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That's pretty dumb logic sorry, people get pissed because it literally takes no one any effort to build a collection of music and people are DJ'ing who have no respect for the scene, only to get their 15 minutes of fame and act like an ignorant retard.

Any monkey can beatmatch, it's really not that hard.
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hmm interesting. from what i am reading both sides have valid points. i think i will wait till i move to uni in a couple of years and have access to both cd/vinyl turntables and digital dj systems, and find what works best for me. in the mean time i will try my hand at some production.

cheers guys
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another thing i have noticed; a lot of djs seem to think that ALL beginners these days especially those learning on traktor or something similar are going to be arrogant little prics only concerned with their 5 minutes of fame with no respect for established djs. not all are do you ever consider that they want to learn because they are passionate about the music and because they genuinely want to dj for the fun of it.
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because they dont spend an arm and a leg building a collection of music
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SlicyDicer View Post

I'd rather see someone playing vinyl, it shows they at least have a passion towards paying for music.

Why does it show they "At least have passion"? Can DJs who perform without vinyl not have passion?



Fact is, you cant expect people to not collect their music online and move forward with technology.
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fuck all of the technical details on it, IMO it isn't about what system you play on, you can soon tell a good DJ from a shit DJ by the mix they pull and the crowd they pull, hardly anyone could care less if you are on vinyl or a laptop, if you can structure a kick ass set, and have people on the floor then I would think that is pretty good. No one cares about the guy with his vinyl or traktor or whatever if they are playing shit tunes and cant mix.

Just because there are auto mixing, auto sync, auto whatever, that doesn't make a difference if you don't have an ear for the music. You could be the worlds best in the technical aspect, but the songs you choose make the difference. Yeah I agree if you choose to sync then you should be using that time to add more flavour to the mix instead of sitting back, to sync any good you have to beat grid your tunes anyway, just doing the hard work before hand instead of live. I think the term DJ is very hazy, it seems things are leaning toward more live music creation, than just blending two tracks.

I think all we want, is just guys who can get the floor full, that's what matters, the crowd, I repeat, the crowd, and if they are happy, not if the purists on itm are.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by ticketsplease View Post

because they dont spend an arm and a leg building a collection of music

because a lot don't even spend a cent on their music
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim-BO View Post

another thing i have noticed; a lot of djs seem to think that ALL beginners these days especially those learning on traktor or something similar are going to be arrogant little prics only concerned with their 5 minutes of fame with no respect for established djs. not all are do you ever consider that they want to learn because they are passionate about the music and because they genuinely want to dj for the fun of it.

There's 1000's of kids out there today with Portable Traktor on their USB thumb drives, nearly every second kid out there has Portable Traktor on their USB thumb drives and they all DJ on it at home, on their friends PC, on PCs at school, after school at the library PCs and on the weekends at the internet cafe or Portable Traktor DJing at a party. Thats why nobody gives a shit about Traktor, kids are like "This is how DJ?? DJs on Traktor, what an utter LOSER" and "Yeah he's a dick alright". I mean like whats so good about being just another 1 of the 1000's or even 10's of 1000's that have Portable Traktor on their USB thumb drives along with their other Portable (microsoft office, metal gear solid ect) USB programs. All we can do is support these Portable Traktor USB thumb drive DJs because theres just 1000's upon 1000's of them.

Maybe DJing on a Computer is the future of DJing but DJing on a PC has turned DJing into a novelty where anybody can be a DJ on Traktor, Virtual Dj, PC DJ ect. with even Iphone Scratch apps like Flare Scratch, Mixmeister Scratch and I Touch Midi (ITM) DJ a Virtual DJ remote for the Iphone/Ipad/Ipod so DJs can take a shit and still DJ on Virtual DJ via Wi-Fi.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hdb2 View Post

Why does it show they "At least have passion"? Can DJs who perform without vinyl not have passion?



Fact is, you cant expect people to not collect their music online and move forward with technology.

Yeah, it's just a personal opinion on what I like to see out and about on my travels, of course I was painting with a broad brush, but it's just my opinion

Of course it's easier / cheaper to buy off beatport et al. But when you see people playing off vinyl you know they've spent a fair bit of time / resources / love building up their collection. It's more worthy of a tip of the hat / high five.

I don't expect any one to do anything, I just like watching people spin vinyl while I'm getting shitfaced.
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Agree with the sentiments that most people don't seem to use their extra time to any great advantage, heck, even half the Abelton sets I've heard just just sounded like a DJ set without the beat matching.

People have been wrapping tracks to the same BPM on CDs for ages, now you don't even need to do that...SYNC and away you go...to me, it sounds really fucking boring...I like "the mix" and the mix is boring if it's that retardedly easy. There's no better feeling than mixing long then running out of track as you're deciding on the next track, in a panic just dropping ASAP, and riding it the whole way through then finding you, through intuition from years of practice, nailed the perfect mix-point and track B drops right as track A ends...fucking bliss!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim-BO View Post

on the other hand using traditional methods allow the dj to effectively learn from the base up not missing anything. it is also a lot simpler for the beginner. there is a lot said about being able to beatmatch (an art the whole dj profession is essentially built around) and those not able to are treated as noobs, so maybe for a quiet life it would be advantageous to learn with cds.

I think if you remove the beat matching, the learning curve of becoming a great DJ would actually be slower because you're not making mistakes which you learn from, you're not spending hours and hours challenging yourself to learn the basics, you'll not intuitively pick up on the structure/mix points as quickly, you're not going to be listening back to sets critiquing yourself endlessly...there's just no challenge in SYNC mix SYNC mix SYNC mix repeat ad nauseum so I could actually see people getting bored of it faster, especially since now it's so easy for "everyone to be a DJ" that it'll become harder and harder and harder to "break through" as no one stands out from anyone else and they give up...perhaps not a bad thing? haha
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I think learning how to beatmatch is one of the essential skills any DJ must have starting out/who doesn't know, what if your laptop shits bitser and you need to jump on some cdj's that don't sync.
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with the advent of technology making music so much more accessable i think we're seeing more & more "live" type artists start coming through....it's happening now as a lot of the dj's who produce look at playing live as a way of staying ahead of the curve.

so in a way technology is starting to push people to improve / push themselves, and these are the people who'll make a mark / be around for a longer time

the dicks who play generic crap that they've downloaded for free will be forgotten in 6 months
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@ Slicydicer, yeah that is fair enough. I was more referring to the passionate part is all, I know people who play on latops and/or CDs who are more passionate than people who play on vinyl and I think thats a very broad thing to say it all.

But point taken .
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I've been running an Open Decks night now for almost 2 years, and i've only had 1 DJ come through that had a Controller. The rest use CDJ's and TT's. Granted a few will use Serato or Traktor but my point is that the ppl that wanna get out there and make a name or have a go and play out eventually are using what ppl on here are calling "traditional" methods.
Yes they are buying Mp3's and burning CD's or using a timecoded record, but the simple fact is it's a lot cheaper and quicker go get an Mp3 track. And lets face it, Vinyl releases are getting less and less (totally breaks my heart).
IMO, ppl using controllers (S4 and the like) are ppl that are happy to muck around at home and at house parties. Once they wanna face the big scary world of Clubs etc, they will have to adapt to the "industry standard" gear where there is no "auto sync"

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Catdog69Kool View Post

^expanding on balls,

i feel you can't really be that creative when you just sync, you miss a vital bit of 'connection' in the music

100% totally agree with this comment, its like autosync = no respect for the track
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I would laugh my ass off if someone like JFB won a DMC championship with a Pioneer DDJ-T1/ DDJ-S1, Traktor S4 or a Denon DNMC6000 then these cheap ass PC DJ decks with built in mixers would be the future of DJing for the price of an Iphone which is accessible to everyone.

Everyone on ITM uses Turn Table's and CDJ's and are just holding on to whatever scaps of status or former glory they'd once had only to be replaced by the new generation of DJs, DJing on their PC DJ decks. Just think of all of that DJs that had spent money for Turn Table's/vinyls, CDJ's/CDs and mixers only to be replaced by 100's and 100's of DJs that can do everything that Turn Table's and CDJ DJs can do just from DJing MP3's on their $1,000.+ PC (ie: DDJ-S1) DJing decks, I mean how would that make you feel if you'd spent all of that money to be a DJ. Also this new generation of DJs tend to share massive collections of 10,000 + MP3's with each other on hard drives that put the owned vinyl and CD DJs to shame.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by frankinfx View Post

I've been running an Open Decks night now for almost 2 years, and i've only had 1 DJ come through that had a Controller. The rest use CDJ's and TT's. Granted a few will use Serato or Traktor but my point is that the ppl that wanna get out there and make a name or have a go and play out eventually are using what ppl on here are calling "traditional" methods.
Yes they are buying Mp3's and burning CD's or using a timecoded record, but the simple fact is it's a lot cheaper and quicker go get an Mp3 track. And lets face it, Vinyl releases are getting less and less (totally breaks my heart).
IMO, ppl using controllers (S4 and the like) are ppl that are happy to muck around at home and at house parties. Once they wanna face the big scary world of Clubs etc, they will have to adapt to the "industry standard" gear where there is no "auto sync"

My 2c.

Yeah but how is a cdj thru traktor different to midi controller? U can assign a button on the new mido decks to sync, tho it doesnt sync that well or u can wave ride?
I personally dont mind what ppl do as long as they get me dancing but yeah agree that if your auto syncing then you gotta be doing some pretty tricky stuff to compensate.

Also whats with this mixtrack ultimate fgt, his posts hardly make sense?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MixTrack Ultimate DJ View Post


Everyone on ITM uses Turn Table's and CDJ's and are just holding on to whatever scaps of status or former glory they'd once had only to be replaced by the new generation of DJs, DJing on their PC DJ decks. Just think of all of that DJs that had spent money for Turn Table's/vinyls, CDJ's/CDs and mixers only to be replaced by 100's and 100's of DJs that can do everything that Turn Table's and CDJ DJs can do just from DJing MP3's on their $1,000.+ PC (ie: DDJ-S1) DJing decks, I mean how would that make you feel if you'd spent all of that money to be a DJ. Also this new generation of DJs tend to share massive collections of 10,000 + MP3's with each other on hard drives that put the owned vinyl and CD DJs to shame.



despite your inane trolling i'm going to field this one.


I am a music collector and sharer ... first and foremost. I never set out wanting to be a DJ ... i just always collected music and would bring it around to friends place to share it ... it developed over many years from that ... as did my music collection and knowledge.


I have no lamentations for the money i've invested in my collection of vinyl and CDs. (which will have considerably more resale value than you HD of MP3s)


I've moved onto DVS because i like the ability to go between my vinyl collection and my digital collection. Best of both worlds. (i'm glad i never bought a CDJ to be honest) .

What you fail to comprehend (amongst other things) is that an instantaneous and massive collection of music comes with a handicap ... and that is a lack of understanding, in depth knowledge and appreciation for the music. It may be a generalisation, but i'd be confident in saying that DJs who start with an "instant" collection of music will essentially play shit music that will not stand the test of time. Disposable music with the shelf life of a carton of milk.

But that's ok, there's a glut of punters who lap that crap up ... but that's not my scene. Neither the music, the punters or the scene.


oh ... and yes, you are a twit.
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[quote=MixTrack Ultimate DJ;394199248]I would laugh my ass off if someone like JFB won a DMC championship with a Pioneer DDJ-T1/ DDJ-S1, Traktor S4 or a Denon DNMC6000

dj i-dee went to the dmc worlde with a Numark NS7
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkedub View Post

What you fail to comprehend (inter alia) is that an instantaneous and massive collection of music comes with a handicap ... and that is a lack of understanding, in depth knowledge and appreciation for the music.

So what your saying is I don't understand my music, your just talking shit
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so you just dobbed yourself in for having a massive and instant music collection?

And yea ... i'd put serious money on the fact you don't understand the music you mix as much as i do ... that doesn't come from my ego, it comes from the confidence that i've put in the time and energy to research and educate myself about the music that turns me on.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MixTrack Ultimate DJ View Post

I would laugh my ass off if someone like JFB won a DMC championship with a Pioneer DDJ-T1/ DDJ-S1, Traktor S4 or a Denon DNMC6000

someone obviously has zero idea of the rulings when it comes to the allowed equipment at the dmc championships.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trouble hifire View Post

someone obviously has zero idea of the rulings when it comes to the allowed equipment at the dmc championships.

Didn't I understand this: "•Digital software (Serato, Traktor, Mix vibes etc), Loop Stations and MPC’s (Roland RC20 or 50 for example) are permitted and are to be supplied by the competing DJs."

I must be a retard inter alia.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkedub View Post



so you just dobbed yourself in for having a massive and instant music collection?

And yea ... i'd put serious money on the fact you don't understand the music you mix as much as i do ... that doesn't come from my ego, it comes from the confidence that i've put in the time and energy to research and educate myself about the music that turns me on.

I used to have 10,000 + music collections but after that thing with Sydney DJs motto, guns, sefu ect. paying massive fines and court fee's years ago, I and everyone I know ditched their massive music collections. New younger DJs these days tend to have these 10,000 + music collections and have absolutely no regard for the consequences of their actions or of any previous high court decisions with regards to copyright protection.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MixTrack Ultimate DJ View Post

Didn't I understand this: "•Digital software (Serato, Traktor, Mix vibes etc), Loop Stations and MPC’s (Roland RC20 or 50 for example) are permitted and are to be supplied by the competing DJs."

I must be a retard inter alia.

That's for team battles sunshine. Not the official dmc champion who can only use 1200/1210's and a mixer.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trouble hifire View Post

That's for team battles sunshine. Not the official dmc champion who can only use 1200/1210's and a mixer.

Google this:

"Serato are pleased to announce that Serato and Rane have been confirmed as major sponsors of the 2011 DMC World DJ Championships.

For over a quarter of a century, the DMC World DJ Championships have inspired DJs from around the globe to put their creativity and skills to the test, and in 2011 the event opens new doors for competitors, allowing the use of Serato Scratch Live.

From 2011 onwards competing DJs will be able to utilize Serato Scratch Live in the DMC World DJ Finals 6 minute category, as well as the DMC DJ Team Championship."
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MixTrack Ultimate DJ View Post

I used to have 10,000 + music collections but after that thing with Sydney DJs motto, guns, sefu ect. paying massive fines and court fee's years ago, I and everyone I know ditched their massive music collections. New younger DJs these days tend to have these 10,000 + music collections and have absolutely no regard for the consequences of their actions or of any previous high court decisions with regards to copyright protection.

God you're full of it.
there be a whole lotta fuNkin,and muthafuNkas that don't know who the fuNk they fuNkin with...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkedub View Post

...understand the music you mix as much as i do

just interested, and I am not taking a stab, but understand the music in what way? Im not too fresh with all the DJ lingo and what not, but when I think understand, from a DJ perspective, the breakdowns etc and from a personal perspective, how the lyrics/music talks to you, and what it means to you (all that deep and meaningful stuff). Just curious mate thats all.
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Quote:

Also whats with this mixtrack ultimate fgt, his posts hardly make sense?

must be some alien code he made so u will have his awesome XML code for your essential Tupperware controller needs
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