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Immigration/ Sink the boats/ Asylum seekers
Press release here, text of the agreement and such here:

http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/medi...1/cb168739.htm

As much as I would like to find the person who came up with the line "break the people smugglers' business model" and staple their fingers together with roofing staples, the agreement seems to have a fair bit going for it. It becomes a lot less attractive to hand over your life savings to a people smuggler and risk your life in a boat if the end result is likely yo be going back to where you came from. Giving the returned people the right to work in Malaysia seems like a reasonable compromise, and you are hardly likely to hand over all your cash and risk your life just to get the right to work in Malaysia.

It would be better if the UNHCR had been enthused enough to sign on, rather than merely noting it. It would be much better again if Malaysia had been prepared to sign the Refugee Convention (although that was never especially likely). And of course, the whole thing ignores the fact that many more asylum seekers come by plane than come by boat.

Still, it seems like a reasonable compromise of the interests involved, and it is a hell of a lot better than sticking people on a lump of bird excrement in the middle of the Pacific for two years before bringing them to Australia in the end, anyway. Thoughts?
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It is a better agreement than I thought they would reach, the community release, work and healthcare provisions make it a lot more palatable. If it removes the 'issue' as a talking point in the next election that would be welcome, somehow I doubt it though.

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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malaysia must be laughing at us.

we take refugees off their hands. we pay for that.

then we send them a fraction of our own. we pay for that too.

malaysia get a whole lot for nothing. out government are fools if they think it's a good deal.
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but yes, this 'break the people smugglers' business model' is particularly nauseating.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

malaysia must be laughing at us.

we take refugees off their hands. we pay for that.

then we send them a fraction of our own. we pay for that too.

malaysia get a whole lot for nothing. out government are fools if they think it's a good deal.

We get genuine refugees from 'the queue' that everyone is so fond of people doing the right thing by.

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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yeah we need more unskilled migrants like a hole in the head.

waste of time, waste of money, embarrassing. this government is a joke in everything they do.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

yeah we need more unskilled migrants like a hole in the head.

waste of time, waste of money, embarrassing. this government is a joke in everything they do.

so what's the Nardo model?

drown all refugees in the Indian ocean?

I'm not particularly fond of the Malaysia deal, I don't think it will stop boats. The only thing that will stop boats is stopping the conflicts in the countries the people are fleeing.
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what guarantee is there that Malayasia is going to live up to any of it's obligations? Are there any repercussions if it doesn't? And if it does reneg on them then is the Australian government going to do anything about it to protect these people?


Urgh. It's just wrong. And ugly.



Duplicating the coalition's policy didn't stop Labor from hemorrhaging in the polls so what was the point in doing it?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

yeah we need more unskilled migrants like a hole in the head.

waste of time, waste of money, embarrassing. this government is a joke in everything they do.

We have a responsibility to take a certain amount of refugees each year as a signatory to the UNHCR convention on refugees, what is wrong with them coming from this particular 'queue' exactly?

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

what guarantee is there that Malayasia is going to live up to any of it's obligations? Are there any repercussions if it doesn't? And if it does reneg on them then is the Australian government going to do anything about it to protect these people?


Urgh. It's just wrong. And ugly.



Duplicating the coalition's policy didn't stop Labor from hemorrhaging in the polls so what was the point in doing it?

Exactly

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all i can say is fuck you ref you fuckhead

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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

Still, it seems like a reasonable compromise of the interests involved, and it is a hell of a lot better than sticking people on a lump of bird excrement in the middle of the Pacific for two years before bringing them to Australia in the end, anyway. Thoughts?

I wasn't a fan of that policy at the time, and still think it was too harsh & too expensive. But the cruel irony is of course that there we're only what, 3 or 4 people left on that lump of bird excrement back when Rudd took power? They could have given those people a house in Vaucluse and a new German limousine each, then simply kept the existing policy in place as a deterrent for the smuggling trade, and they still would have come out hundreds of millions of dollars in front, 50 odd lives probably wouldn't have been lost at sea, and a messy policy involving shipping 4000+ asylum seekers to Malaysia wouldn't have been needed. Sure this is all coming from hindsight, but they should have seen it coming back in 2007.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie View Post

We have a responsibility to take a certain amount of refugees each year as a signatory to the UNHCR convention on refugees, what is wrong with them coming from this particular 'queue' exactly?

no we dont. Resettling refugees as part of the UNHCR resettlement program is voluntary. The refugee convention pertains to the treatment of asylum seekers, and asylum seekers who given the criteria of the convention meet the definition of 'refugee'. The process of asylum seekers claiming protection in country where they do not already have a visa or protection status is the normal process.

The UNHCR resettlement program resettles individuals who have already been classified as refugees by the UNHCR and are seeking to be resettled because of the condition of host countries (host countries that the refugees are in outside their countries of nationality, generally tend to be neighbouring developing countries. developing countries host about 80% of refugees currently).

Under the refugee convention Australia has a commitment to asylum seekers, to determine status, provide protection (if status as a refugee is confirmed), and to not send refugees, against their will, to a country where they face harm or human rights abuse (non- refoulment).

Last edited by mogmac: 26-Jul-11 at 03:27pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

yeah we need more unskilled migrants like a hole in the head.

waste of time, waste of money, embarrassing. this government is a joke in everything they do.

Yeah, because refugees are all just unskilled migrants - it's not like they could ever do anything worthwhile like, say, winning the Book of the Year prize at the Australian Book Industry Awards:

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3277776.htm
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personally, ill be happy if this results in Malaysia signing the refugee convention sometime over the next few years given that they have 90,000 refugees without access to schooling and health. A buttload more the the 13,750 we are getting a year. this direct engagement between Australia and Malaysia will likely put more pressure on them to sign up, especially given that its worth so much to them if they can become a regional processing centre for asylum seekers as mr nardo said. I think its an intelligent strategy, quite ugly, conflicting with the refugee convention, and a little bit wrong, but smart nonetheless. I am cautiously optimistic, even though I acknowledge how problematic it is likely to be.

Also, it seems to have had some success in reducing asylum boat trip, boat arrivals have been down recently (I think), plus there was that thing with the Sri Lankan boat that wanted to go to New Zealand.

is this just a one off or are there likely to be more swaps in the future?
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Quote:

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Duplicating the coalition's policy didn't stop Labor from hemorrhaging in the polls so what was the point in doing it?

Because it is not duplicating the Coalition's policy. There are no Temporary Protection Visas which mean that people live in constant fear of being sent back to their home country, unable to make any decisions about their lives.

The Coalition's policy wasn't a regional solution - Nauru and PNG aren't transit points for asylum seekers in this region. And the Coalition's policy tried to ensure that fewer, rather than more refugees were accepted by Australia (notwithstanding the fact that most of the people who were sent to Nauru ended up in Australia anyway).

Phoneyhuh, where do you get the "4000+" figure from?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

There are no Temporary Protection Visas


yet


Quote:

SELECTIVE use of temporary visas would encourage good behaviour by asylum-seekers in detention centres, Immigration Minister Chris Bowen said today.

Under a toughened character test, the government will bar asylum-seekers who commit offences in detention from gaining permanent protection in Australia.

But they'll still be allowed to live in the country under temporary protection visas - a Howard-era policy instrument used to discourage asylum-seekers from coming to Australia.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226044984618

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nardo's refugee policy:

step 1. pick up refugee from boat, water, wherever.
step 2. take refugee to processing centre
step 3. work out where they came from
step 4. send them back there on the next available flight

simple, you come here through the unofficial channels, you get sent straight home.

if we are in the business of 'breaking the people smugglers' business model' then that's how you do it.

that said i have no problem in us taking more refugees. just on our terms.
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A video on the history of asylum seekers and why this policy is so important it is correct. Please learn from this lesson from the past and don’t let another Iraq happen!

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The Secret Iraq Files - YouTube

(Warning: Graphic, very humbling, and Julian Assange)
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so you would support violating various part simultaneously of United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, UN Refugee Convention, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, likely causing death and harm to thousands of me, women and children by sending them directly back to the persecution they are trying to escape from? If so, you certainly aren't the type of person any reasonable person should be listening to.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

Phoneyhuh, where do you get the "4000+" figure from?

"as of February 2011, there are currently 5,061 men, 571 women and 1,027 children under 18 living in detention centres in Australia." Wiki

As for temporary protection visas. From memory the refugee's we accepted from the Balkans in the mid 90's we're more than happy to return to their home countries once those wars were over. Though I can understand though why someone wouldn't be too keen to return to the Democratic republic of the Congo if their civil war ended - for example.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 26-Jul-11 at 03:56pm

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morgmac - you asking me?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

nardo's refugee policy:

step 1. pick up refugee from boat, water, wherever.
step 2. take refugee to processing centre
step 3. work out where they came from
step 4. send them back there on the next available flight

simple, you come here through the unofficial channels, you get sent straight home.

if we are in the business of 'breaking the people smugglers' business model' then that's how you do it.

that said i have no problem in us taking more refugees. just on our terms.

you're either one of the following

1) Completely heartless
2) Completely ill-informed about asylum seekers given your "unofficial" comment
or
3) A massive troll
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

morgmac - you asking me?

yep, i probably shouldnt have done that whole pretentious thing of answering thing for you hey? haha.

anyway, yes it was serious question because what you stated would do all those things
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

simple, you come here through the unofficial channels, you get sent straight home.


..............

Last edited by robin78: 26-Jul-11 at 03:56pm

Reason: why bother

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imaginary queues to jump etc etc, same old bullshit for same old rednecks

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Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

Dont bother arguing with Big Eddie Deepchild.

He doesnt grasp the logic behind helping people less fortunate than himself.

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Why is it that the most heartless rednecks also tend to be the biggest rent seekers when it comes to 'ozstayins doing it tough'?

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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yeah i dont have a problem putting people on a plane and sending them back to where they came from. i don't care what the UN has to say about it either. If they gave a shit, then they would do more to sort out the problems at their source.

We are very lucky to have a giant moat around our nation and we should take advantage of it.

we are a sovereign nation and we can do it if we choose to. we can join a long list of other nations who frequently tell the UN to get stuffed.

it's cheaper than messing about with them for years and the money could be dedicated to increasing our refugee intake through official channels. or it could be used to improve the standard of living of australians. either way, both are preferable to this incompetent and indecisive rabble orchestrated by the government.

if you don't think there is anything unofficial about paying a criminal to put you on a leaky boat and send you down to australia then you just dont get it.

send them home for the first 12 months and announce to the world that we will use any boats after that date as target practice for our airforce and the boat arrival problem will soon disappear.
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I vote Nardo off the island.
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Quote:

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or it could be used to improve the standard of living of australians.

This is the laughable thing - OUR STANDARD OF LIVING HAS NEVER BEEN HIGHER.

We are richer, fatter and longer living than we have ever been in any stage in history. We live in a land of glorious excess and people still whinge about how hard they have it here.

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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Nardo,
If you send an asylum seeker back to the country they are fleeing and they get killed, are YOU guilty of manslaughter?
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vote away. i wouldn't like your chances. the australian people have a history of supporting a fairly hard line against boat people.

lucky the whole nation isn't a bunch of soft cocks.
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Quote:

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vote away. i wouldn't like your chances. the australian people have a history of supporting a fairly hard line against boat people.

lucky the whole nation isn't a bunch of soft cocks.

Of course they are soft cocks, all they do is complain about how hard they have it and that the government should "do something about it"

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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Quote:

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vote away. i wouldn't like your chances. the australian people have a history of supporting a fairly hard line against boat people.

lucky the whole nation isn't a bunch of soft cocks.


No the history was that they let in the Vietnamese happily, it was the gutter politics by Howard that changed that.
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lowkey. i wouldn't lose sleep over it. if you want to get legal over it, then no i wouldn't be guilty of manslaughter. the person who killed them (literally) would be (or murder). that's the thing about personal responsibility.

i tend to be the sort of person who cares about my family, my community and my country.

if i started giving a shit about every little problem everywhere in the world then when would i stop? each country, each community has a responsibility to sort out it's own problems.

we shouldn't be acting as world police, nor should we be acting as a dumping ground for the incompetence of other nations.
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As an immigrant, coming from the land of whinging Poms, it only took me about 6 months to realise that Australians really should look in the mirror when it comes to gripping, complaining and just generally carrying on like a bunch of 6yos at kindergarten.
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It didn't use to be this bad, I swear.

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

lowkey. i wouldn't lose sleep over it. if you want to get legal over it, then no i wouldn't be guilty of manslaughter. the person who killed them (literally) would be (or murder). that's the thing about personal responsibility.

i tend to be the sort of person who cares about my family, my community and my country.

if i started giving a shit about every little problem everywhere in the world then when would i stop? each country, each community has a responsibility to sort out it's own problems.

we shouldn't be acting as world police, nor should we be acting as a dumping ground for the incompetence of other nations.

you mean this country that was stolen off the original inhabitants? what makes this country yours?
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lowkey you are going on the retarded tangent. i enjoy hearing others oppose my views. some of them are really impressive.

you are not.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

"as of February 2011, there are currently 5,061 men, 571 women and 1,027 children under 18 living in detention centres in Australia." Wiki

As for temporary protection visas. From memory the refugee's we accepted from the Balkans in the mid 90's we're more than happy to return to their home countries once those wars were over. Though I can understand though why someone wouldn't be too keen to return to the Democratic republic of the Congo if their civil war ended - for example.

Well yes, but we are not sending everyone in immigration detention to Malaysia. Part of the reason that number's so high is that it seems to be taking ASIO forever to do background checks, despite the fact that ASIO have been resourced up the wazoo to do so. I'm hoping that when Stephen Smith finishes giving the military a good dressing down he will turn his attention to ASIO.

There's a bit of a difference between people going home to their countries of their own free will and going home because their right to stay in Australia has come to an end, just quietly.
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yeah well ASIO could do better.

i wonder how many of these characters are in malaysian camps, but will soon get sent to Australia:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/questn...-1226101571479
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

Part of the reason that number's so high is that it seems to be taking ASIO forever to do background checks, despite the fact that ASIO have been resourced up the wazoo to do so. I'm hoping that when Stephen Smith finishes giving the military a good dressing down he will turn his attention to ASIO.
.

is that why there quite a few people who have been in detention for long periods of time (over 6 months or so)? do you know much about what a background check involves? curious because I have to write reports on the subject and you dont really come across much answering these questions.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

lowkey you are going on the retarded tangent. i enjoy hearing others oppose my views. some of them are really impressive.

you are not.

im disappointed that someone with such a capable intellect, as evidenced by your solution to the asylum seeker issue feels this way
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Fuck I wish we had a "do not like" button for Nardo's posts. They make me extremely sad

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Originally Posted by RaVeR_SpIkE View Post

all i can say is fuck you ref you fuckhead

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nardo View Post

lowkey. i wouldn't lose sleep over it. if you want to get legal over it, then no i wouldn't be guilty of manslaughter. the person who killed them (literally) would be (or murder). that's the thing about personal responsibility.

i tend to be the sort of person who cares about my family, my community and my country.

if i started giving a shit about every little problem everywhere in the world then when would i stop? each country, each community has a responsibility to sort out it's own problems.

we shouldn't be acting as world police, nor should we be acting as a dumping ground for the incompetence of other nations.

you are a shameful selfish person...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by big eddie View Post

Of course they are soft cocks, all they do is complain about how hard they have it and that the government should "do something about it"

I met a woman who reckons Thatcher basically kicked out all the serial pom whingers with their entitlement culture, and they ended up here.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

Well yes, but we are not sending everyone in immigration detention to Malaysia. Part of the reason that number's so high is that it seems to be taking ASIO forever to do background checks, despite the fact that ASIO have been resourced up the wazoo to do so. I'm hoping that when Stephen Smith finishes giving the military a good dressing down he will turn his attention to ASIO.

There's a bit of a difference between people going home to their countries of their own free will and going home because their right to stay in Australia has come to an end, just quietly.

So precisely how many are we sending off to Malaysia? When the deal was first prematurely announced it was 800 and something - but many boats have arrived since then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by legal-affairs View Post

There's a bit of a difference between people going home to their countries of their own free will and going home because their right to stay in Australia has come to an end, just quietly.

Well if you've come from the developing world - who in their right mind would choose to return even if it is safe & sound - If given the option of settling in Australia? I'm all for giving genuine refugee's the opportunity to stay put & settle in Australia if they face ongoing persecution back home, but I wouldn't offer the same opportunity to refugee's who initially fled a temporary crisis which is now over and would now simply prefer a more comfortable lifestyle over here than back at home. Otherwise where would you draw the line?

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 26-Jul-11 at 09:15pm

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So precisely how many are we sending off to Malaysia? When the deal was first prematurely announced it was 800 and something - but many boats have arrived since then.

It's still 800, but it is 800 starting from when the deal was signed - people who arrived after announcement but before signing are not affected.
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I just reckon as an ethical issue this is absolutely shameful to be dealing with a country that has so many human rights issues dealing with refugees. What happened to Australia being more compassionate and welcoming? There has to be a better way.

The goverment is way off on this one.

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There are definitely better ways to go about it, the problem is there is a large portion of Australian society who for whatever ill-informed reason think that the best idea would be to start torpedoing any boats on our northern approaches.

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if you didnt want to hear self righteous lefty rants, you shouldn't have taken drugs and listened to dance music with people holding arts degrees imo.

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