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Barely minutes after gas was heralded as our energy supply/CO2 reduction saviour, we're running out already, the timing of the story maybe have to do with making coal seam gas lovable, but that doesn't make the story untrue.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/en...418-1x7pq.html
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They need to build a gas pipeline from the north west shelf to the eastern seaboard. There's enough natural gas out there to last us hundreds if not thousands of years. It would be of similar length to the Yamal-Europe pipeline - that costed $10billion to build. Which coincidentally is the same amount of money that the Gillard govt is planning on giving away to the wishy washy clean energy fund project over the next 5 years.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

They need to build a gas pipeline from the north west shelf to the eastern seaboard. There's enough natural gas out there to last us hundreds if not thousands of years. It would be of similar length to the Yamal-Europe pipeline - that costed $10billion to build. Which coincidentally is the same amount of money that the Gillard govt is planning on giving away to the wishy washy clean energy fund project over the next 5 years.

It's already all sold to China.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

There's enough natural gas out there to last us hundreds if not thousands of years.

ah yes, thousand of years, I think you need to learn about exponential growth
and then you will immediately recognize that statement as just plain ridiculous.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

It's already all sold to China.

Yep, cheaper just to build a processing facility and port in Broome and have the Chinese sail in and cart it off than pipe it across Australia.

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^mmmm all this talk of meat is getting me excited.

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Last Weekend, Half of Germany Was Running on Solar Power

This is really remarkable because I didn't think this would have been possible for Germany to get to this stage so quickly,
the solar industry really is still in it's infancy.
So things are looking good for us because we have a lot more sun and the technology is much cheaper now.
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Coal seam gas to the rescue!

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/b...-1226373259476
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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst View Post

ah yes, thousand of years, I think you need to learn about exponential growth
and then you will immediately recognize that statement as just plain ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_VpyoAXpA8

What's this exponential growth you're referring to?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

They need to build a gas pipeline from the north west shelf to the eastern seaboard. There's enough natural gas out there to last us hundreds if not thousands of years. It would be of similar length to the Yamal-Europe pipeline - that costed $10billion to build. Which coincidentally is the same amount of money that the Gillard govt is planning on giving away to the wishy washy clean energy fund project over the next 5 years.

1000s of years hey? Where's your source for that? Seems like you've caught buffed syndrome..... make up some complete bullshit and hope nobody notices.


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In August 2010 Australia’s proved and probable (2P) natural gas reserves — those with reasonable prospects for commercialisation — stood at around 106 000 petajoules
(PJ),

snip

Australia produced 1911 PJ of natural gas in 2009 – 10

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item....ural%20gas.pdf

So at current rates of production we've got about 50yrs at most, but since global demand is projected to rise exponentially (did you learn about exponential functions in the vid horst posted?), then most estimates give us about 30-40yrs tops.

And you do realise that natural gas is still a fossil fuel that emits greenhouse gases when burned right?

Nb: I'm not saying LNG shouldn't be developed in some capacity, but wtf are we going to do with a massive pipeline that travels across the desert when those reserves run out?

Germany is pumping renewables, creating jobs, investment and energy security for as long as the sun keeps shining. Australia is a sunny country and it is a better long term energy policy for us to do the same. An ETS will not "scare away" investment as you incorrectly implied in that other post you made recently. It is the political uncertainty that is doing the scaring and the greens and opposition are just as much to blame for that mess as the labor party.
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here's the video
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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst View Post

Last Weekend, Half of Germany Was Running on Solar Power

This is really remarkable because I didn't think this would have been possible for Germany to get to this stage so quickly,
the solar industry really is still in it's infancy.
So things are looking good for us because we have a lot more sun and the technology is much cheaper now.

True, though they do have a rather generous gross feed-in tariff scheme that facilitated this. The next (and in my opinion, crucial) step is to start developing cheaper $/Ah energy storage technologies so that this solar energy can be utilised after the sun goes down or when there is a period of a few cloudy days in a row, instead of using it just for the day when its available. For now, I'd go with a grant system similar to the original PV Rebate Program where existing system owners can receive a rebate for converting their grid-connect system to one with battery-backup capability. Some might even upscale their existing systems to take advantage of this.

The other reason is that current electricity grids can only cope with so much fluctuation from different numbers of generators connected to the system (especially solar and wind) before they can start affecting the reliability of the grid. Introducing more battery storage systems to the system will help to stabilise parts of the grid where there are significant numbers of systems connected in one area, allowing for more systems to be connected.

In short, it's achievable, but needs a few measures put in place to facilitate it.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by horst View Post

Last Weekend, Half of Germany Was Running on Solar Power

This is really remarkable because I didn't think this would have been possible for Germany to get to this stage so quickly,
the solar industry really is still in it's infancy.
So things are looking good for us because we have a lot more sun and the technology is much cheaper now.

What an incredible achievement I had no idea the technology was up to this point. We need to put fields of solar panels in the desert!!!

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Davomaxi View Post

What an incredible achievement I had no idea the technology was up to this point. We need to put fields of solar panels in the desert!!!

We now have over 1,000 MW of photovoltaic solar in Australia.

One of the biggest problems for solar is the low energy intensity/land area. In Australia, we simply don't have that problem. Concentrated solar thermal power stations using molten salt heat storage can provide 24 hour power. The fuel source is endless, our rural areas are very sunny.

Other countries look at us and shake their collective heads in disbelief. Meanwhile, Abott and Pyne are too busy treating the House of Representatives like a school playground.

Read it and weep.
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Transfer losses would render the investment not profitable.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bracko View Post

Transfer losses would render the investment not profitable.

From where, and compared with what? The full life cycle cost of coal fired power plus all the externalities?
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As a country with some of the largest nuclear reserves in the world and so much uninhabitable space, it boggles the mind that we don't look at nuclear power as an option.
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But if we move away from coal how else will Clive Palmer be able to afford his massive food bill and keep those chins wobbling?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fledz View Post

As a country with some of the largest nuclear reserves in the world and so much uninhabitable space, it boggles the mind that we don't look at nuclear power as an option.

Because its ridiculously expensive, masive risks involved, huge processing and reprocessing infrastucture requirements of which we currently have none and is still not profitable anywhere without government subsidy.

Remember, insurance companies won't underwrite new nuclear power plants - governments have to.

So, when you take all the other downsides into account, why bother when we have so many other options?

http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/...es-report.html

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I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

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That's fair enough, but I don't think we've had a proper detailed look at the benefits and negatives. It's always been a sort of round-about approach to nuclear energy which gets us nowhere.
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I'd also imagine there would be issues with obtaining enough cooling water in a sustainable manner.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fledz View Post

That's fair enough, but I don't think we've had a proper detailed look at the benefits and negatives. It's always been a sort of round-about approach to nuclear energy which gets us nowhere.

Even with the billions of subsidy on offer in the US and the existing infrastructure wall street aren't willing to stump up the cash to build new plants in the US. There is currently one reactor under construction in the US, it's running overtime and over budget and looks very likely that it will fail to be completed.

Benefits: low carbon emission on an ongoing basis if you exclude construction and externalities.
Negatives: Everything else.

Fukushima Daiichi left the 'nuclear revival' stillborn.

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I hate it when you're right and I'm not.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Davomaxi View Post

What an incredible achievement I had no idea the technology was up to this point. We need to put fields of solar panels in the desert!!!

at a cost of about 100billion euros in subsidies...

We need to put fields of solar panels in the desert?
By slugging young families doing it tough with higher power bills so bob brown can transmit that money to Chinese solar panel producers who are powered by cheap coal? The people wont cop it.
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And PV was always going to be too expensive.

"A total of 837 MW of PV were installed in Australia in 2011, more than twice the capacity
added in 2010. Of this 91% was grid-connected, taking the cumulative grid-connected
portion to 88%, up from 84% last year. Total installed capacity in Australia is now 1.4 GW.
PV power has now reached grid parity in many parts areas and government support
programs are winding down.

http://www.apva.org.au/sites/default...lia%202011.pdf

One of the problems with discussions about energy is that so many people with an opinion know two fifths of fuck all about it, and they are usually the ones who speak against renewable energy.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Abziie View Post

By slugging young families doing it tough

ha.
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Are you talking no food on the table tough or 40" inch plasma instead of 60" tough?

If the government wants to push money into manufacturing, I'd like them to put it into solar panel production.
We should be the world leaders in this from start to finish.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvoZ View Post

Are you talking no food on the table tough or 40" inch plasma instead of 60" tough?

If the government wants to push money into manufacturing, I'd like them to put it into solar panel production.
We should be the world leaders in this from start to finish.

dAvoZ, one of the unfortunate outcomes of the withdrawal of that kind of funding by the Howard Govt is that some of our best solar wizards moved to China (and became billionaires). Sadly, the Gillard got has removed significant funding from these guys: http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/research (where we trained the billionaires). We waste so much potential in this country.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvoZ View Post

Are you talking no food on the table tough or 40" inch plasma instead of 60" tough?

Who cares, there is no honest debating this. People on one end of the spectrum reckon people who have a few extra dollars in their pocket should be sweet with coughing up money for every single wonderful new and flowery idea that costs "only $1.47~ a day, less than you spend on flat white!"
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Abziie View Post

at a cost of about 100billion euros in subsidies...

We need to put fields of solar panels in the desert?
By slugging young families doing it tough with higher power bills so bob brown can transmit that money to Chinese solar panel producers who are powered by cheap coal? The people wont cop it.

Yes that's pretty much my plan. Once Bob Brown gets the ok from his mysterious commie half Chinese/half Russian overlord ofcourse.

The people would cop it if the renewable sector had half the clout the coal industry does with parliament and the media, because you'd scarcely hear about the negatives. Or perhaps you just underestimate the people. I'd be willing to bet the majority would pop in a few more bucks a week for solar if it meant their kids' kids are going to be breathing cleaner air.

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My bad, I wasnt aware that this was about providing cleaner air for my kids' kids to breathe.... where do i sign up!

How much will this flowery new future cost me.... more or less than what I spend on coffee a week?
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Abziie...got any idea how much of your tax goes towards subsidising the coal industry?
More or less than a cup of coffee a day?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

dAvoZ, one of the unfortunate outcomes of the withdrawal of that kind of funding by the Howard Govt is that some of our best solar wizards moved to China (and became billionaires). Sadly, the Gillard got has removed significant funding from these guys: http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/research (where we trained the billionaires). We waste so much potential in this country.

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Originally Posted by B_e_de View Post

It's the same as going out on a busy street and looking at the people around you, most of them are fgts.

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I'd wager some good money on that being one of the first times that a left-leaning poster has been hit with that clip. Good inversion sir.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fledz View Post

As a country with some of the largest nuclear reserves in the world and so much uninhabitable space, it boggles the mind that we don't look at nuclear power as an option.

Because anyone that knows power generation costs, technology benefit and benefits knows it's not worth it without significant government subsidies.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

dAvoZ, one of the unfortunate outcomes of the withdrawal of that kind of funding by the Howard Govt is that some of our best solar wizards moved to China (and became billionaires). Sadly, the Gillard got has removed significant funding from these guys: http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/research (where we trained the billionaires). We waste so much potential in this country.

I was at UNSW from 99 and knew they had a strong solar program. But I strongly remember someone among the commie lesbian set claiming that the Fed Gvt was trying to shut down the solar program. Are there any doxuments of this historical period? Id be interested
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Wind power producing half the energy requirement in South Australia, peaking at a share of 85%!

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/wind...ustralia-75810
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'South Australia’s coal generators are in mothballs right now due to the impact of wind, and lower demand, and the carbon price'

wow

anyone have any feelings about the Fed Govt refusing to buy out those brown coal power stations?

seems to be motivated by the budget bottom line or maybe union pressure. that's my uninformed opinion.
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Hazelwood et al. was a massive political error. The denier brigade have seen it as validation that Gillard doesn't actually care about emissions, and Joe Six-pack will probably think the same (eg. this carbon tax ain't working, I gotta pay more tax, polluters be pollutin' derp derp ad nauseum).

But yeah, unsure about the motivations. I figured the closure of hazelwood in particular should be pretty high on the agenda.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston View Post

'South Australia’s coal generators are in mothballs right now due to the impact of wind, and lower demand, and the carbon price'

wow

anyone have any feelings about the Fed Govt refusing to buy out those brown coal power stations?

seems to be motivated by the budget bottom line or maybe union pressure. that's my uninformed opinion.

Firstly, the inital privatisation was ill-conceived as the power stations were always considered a strandard asset. There was enough certainty in global negotations that this power station would become unviable. The owners have continued to invest capital in it because they always felt they would be rescued, gaming the situation.

The deal should never have been there in the first place. My guess is the government has offered them a real value and the owners want a fictitious value.

You're seeing a lot of grandstanding about this but the reality is this kind of bizarre rescue of inept private sector decision making should never happen.
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thanks Claude, o wise one (not taking the piss)

so you think the Govt is banking on these power stations becoming unviable as more renewables enter the market, or as the carbon price increases etc?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CheelWinston View Post

thanks Claude, o wise one (not taking the piss)

so you think the Govt is banking on these power stations becoming unviable as more renewables enter the market, or as the carbon price increases etc?

It's probably a lot more complex and political than that. One of the reasons for the proposed buy out was that these power stations said the carbon price would kill them. It's likely that they have now shown figures which indicate that's not the case, particularly with the removal of the floor price and EU ETS linking. The price will go up again though. In the meantime, they'll keep operating.

There are number of opposing and perhaps ironic factors at play here. I don't think the govt ever actually intended to buy them off.
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wasn't the buy out of Hazelwood and the others part of the concession made so the Greens would support it?


(a little strange talking about Hazelwood as I used to get samples from there in my last job)
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Quote:

Originally Posted by liberabit View Post

wasn't the buy out of Hazelwood and the others part of the concession made so the Greens would support it?

Probably that too.
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more profound news
so it is cheaper now to build a new solar power plant than it is to build a new coal plant, in Australia at least
I admit I never thought this was going to be possible, but here we are:
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/rene...ustralia-62268

The upshot is that there will be no new coal plants and the ones that are at the end of their service live will be replaced by renewable energy:
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/qld-...solar-pv-26096
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Ha, if you listen to Barnaby Joyce (and I don't suggest you do) he claims that renewables will lead to doom and gloom and the world caving in if we start replacing baseload power with renewables. Apparently Labor are the 'government of wind farms', which, according to his frankly weird diatribe is a bad thing.

God that man does no favours for Queensland or Australia as a whole.
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No sane investors have been enthusiastic about investing in coal plants for a while. And China's recent strong move away form coal underpins that.
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Probably not a great development for climate change abatement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21752441
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Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

Probably not a great development for climate change abatement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21752441

No, and of course Japan will be highly motivated to exploit this after Fukushima. The climate change problem is really no different to morbid obesity.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

dAvoZ, one of the unfortunate outcomes of the withdrawal of that kind of funding by the Howard Govt is that some of our best solar wizards moved to China (and became billionaires). Sadly, the Gillard got has removed significant funding from these guys: http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/research (where we trained the billionaires). We waste so much potential in this country.

Names of billionaires? Want to know moar.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TrainsPillsBreaks View Post

Names of billionaires? Want to know moar.

Coincidental that you ask that question now. Shi Zhengrong, but it looks like he may have dropped off the billionaire's list.

http://www.smartcompany.com.au/clima...e-founded.html
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Fascinating things happening in the electricity market, war might sound dramatic, but there's two sides here which have no intention of giving into the other.

http://theconversation.com/were-head...-stop-it-16582
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