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a new direction for europe or shifting back to the old?

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a new direction for europe or shifting back to the old?
I'm admittedly no expert on the current political/ economic/ social situation in europe, but a lot of the news reports about the rise of the far left and far right parties in europe have got me quite concerned.

This far right neo-nazi organisation thats gotten 7% of the vote has been involved in beatings and stabbings of immigrants
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...r-7712276.html

and many other countries are heading down the either far-left or far-right path its seems (although none so far as the greeks) with good doses of anti-EU and anti-germany/brussels
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-0...impact/3996566

and it really doesnt sound like stability is going to be coming to europe anytime soon. I cant help but think thinkgs are going a bit pear-shaped over there.
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I think you'll find that in Europe there has been a large feeling that our current socio/politico/economic status quo are not really working out for everyone and that change is needed.

In addition to the parties you've mentioned there has also been the meteoric rise of the various Pirate Parties. It never gets brought up here because I think our political journos are incapable of understanding what makes them tick

In Germany they took 44 state government seats as well as 317 city/municipal council seats (the German Piratenpartei Deutschland won 9.8% of the Berlin city elections and just to put that in perspective they are one of eleven different pirate parties in Germany and other pirate parties also won seats in Berlin in the same election). They still haven't won any Federal seats in Germany but they are definitely more than a fringe group.

In Hungary they have 16 MP's, in Sweden they actually took 2 seats in the European Parliament and there are a smattering of other (typically council) seats in other countries as well.

Germany and Sweden are the only two countries that have seen a concerted effort from them so far but it's early days for them at the moment. If more of the various parties start combining together and if the party in many countries gets together and pushes for European Parliamentary seats they could be a real force in European politics.

Which would have serious implications on their relationship with the USA since the Pirate Parties main goals are supporting civil rights, direct democracy and participation, reform of copyright and patent law, free sharing of knowledge (Open Content), data privacy, transparency, freedom of information, free education, universal healthcare and a clear separation between church and state.

So it's not just the far right youth making big changes in their political landscape.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

So it's not just the far right youth making big changes in their political landscape.

the far right youth rarely make big changes in the political landscape, unless it's to bring the masses back to the middle by their extreme actions/rhetoric. Actually same goes for the far-left youth.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

the far right youth rarely make big changes in the political landscape, unless it's to bring the masses back to the middle by their extreme actions/rhetoric. Actually same goes for the far-left youth.

If you go far enough in either direction, they pretty much start sounding and acting the same.

The far right group that won 7% in Greece are pretty mental, they advocate putting land mines across the border to stop immigration!! (although I'm not sure how many people are trying to get into Greece these days).

Europe is certainly a mess at the moment. France is going down a socialist route, England is going austerity, Greece wants money without having to stop spending it on crap.

Apparently one bank has rated it 75% likely that the Euro will go in the near future.

I'm an advocate of allowed countries to exit the Euro but others say that'll bring about a new financial apocolapyse. Certainly interesting times but it's fucking the international credit markets at the moment.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

the far right youth rarely make big changes in the political landscape, unless it's to bring the masses back to the middle by their extreme actions/rhetoric. Actually same goes for the far-left youth.

Yeah, that's why I'm surprised the Pirate Party doesn't ever get a mention in our media. They are actually taking votes from pretty much all the parties at the moment, in polls pull about 13% of the national vote and 33% of Germans polled say they are seriously considering voting for them.

They've had their fair share of teething problems many caused by their meteoric rise from nothing (in the Berlin vote for instance - which works similarly to our senate elections - they won enough of the vote to win 15 seats in the Buunderstaag. They only had 15 people registered so if they had won any more of the vote they would have had to concede seats to other parties.

They were then roundly criticised by the other parties for the lack of diversity in their candidates (nearly all young white guys).

They also have a problem with members making comments comparing the rise of the PP to the rise of the Nazi's. The other parties have been using this as a football to claim the party is open to subversion by neo-nazis but it probably just goes to show that most of the other parties don't understand Godwin's Law.

They actually discuss all their policy online in a streamed conversation called Liquid Feedback, which is also causing some teething problems while at the same time changing the face of politics forever if it succeeds. Basically anyone in the party is capable of talking about issues and policy there and then every member of the party is able to vote on the issue. Forget yearly caucus meetings. Forget delegates or proxy votes. If you don't like the parties policy on an issue you can get online right now and call for a change and the change can get voted on if you get enough support for the new policy.

Of course factions are already forming in their online discussions and people with ready access to computers will have more say in party policy than those who don't. And being the internet letting people raise any issue can lead to a lot of static in their discussions (One member is currently seriously proposing that all euro-zone countries reintroduce their old currencies, but without abolishing the euro.)

They have also started drawing criticism from artists who are worried about their incomes if the PP's plans at reforming copyright laws goes ahead.

So I'm not sure how well it will hold together but I just find it disappointing that if I didn't go read the Spiegel for my news on Europe I'd never have heard of them. Certianly the concept is interesting.
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I'm looking forward to the collapse of the Euro, although it seems like we'll end up with a ton of left-wing governments at the end of it.

The Lib Dems will probably commit suicide en masse. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. Just Clegg would be enough TBH.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

If you go far enough in either direction, they pretty much start sounding and acting the same.

Nope.
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Yes actually. Both will start becoming more extreme and more than likely use violence as a key piece of strategy.
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The far right parties in the UK got slaughtered in the recent local elections (councils and mayors). The BNP is arguably a spent political force in the UK.
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Yep. Totalitarian governments of either stripe are fucking hard to tell apart.

Whether something is state owned, or is corporate owned but all contracts are awarded/over seen by the state...gets tough to tell.

Especially when someone wearing a jackboot is stamping on your face.
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The Tories may well head down that path too, if they apply the brutal fist of Austerity too harshly.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Griggle View Post

Certianly the concept is interesting.

yes exactly!

and i just wanted to say to mogmac, it's not alarming as much as it is refreshing.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

Yes actually. Both will start becoming more extreme and more than likely use violence as a key piece of strategy.

Yeah dubz is on the money here.

Crack-pot lefties claiming there is a conspiracy of the Illuminati setting bombs in the World Trade Center to justify invading Iraq for oil are just as stupid as crack-pot righties claiming that every climate scientist on the planet is colluding to invent Global Warming so that they will all get research grants.
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Pretty poor example there Griggle.
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Yup

“Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right you meet the same idiots coming around from the left.
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I'd say Mao and Hitler are prime examples of this
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

The Tories may well head down that path too, if they apply the brutal fist of Austerity too harshly.

at the recent local elections the conservatives lost over 400 seats to labour, and the voting turnout was extremely low.

the nurses are already pissed off, having staged countrywide rallies in recent months. the police booed off the home secretary today after she was adamant about budget cuts in her annual speech. the british medical association was displeased with the tories' austerity measures and revamped UK healthcare plan, and some of the UK's highest ranked doctors submitted their opinions to the media. the transport for london staff who run the tube went on strike the other week because of recent cuts to staff, as well as cuts to their retirement funds (if this happens during the olympics, good fucking luck getting on a bus or even hailing down a taxi to get anywhere!).

finally, there were the 2011 riots. as much as i despise the looters and hooligans who caused the most damage, a lot of normal people were out there not just for the death of mark druggan, but a general backlash against the government and show of distaste towards its poor leadership, particularly after everything that came out during the news of the world scandal.

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^ the current recession in the UK is a clear result of the budget cutbacks and a direct outcome of the government's policies. Austerity measures take money out of the economy...at a time when the private sector cannot step in and take the governments place there is no way for the economy to head but south. Its almost counter intuitive, but the time for government austerity is when the economy is going well.

In the UK there is going to be continued revelations and developments around David Cameron's relationship with Rebekah Brookes and news international that will probably end up resulting ina minister or two being sacked.

I'd be putting a few bob on Labor winning the next election there
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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

^ the current recession in the UK is a clear result of the budget cutbacks and a direct outcome of the government's policies. Austerity measures take money out of the economy...at a time when the private sector cannot step in and take the governments place there is no way for the economy to head but south. Its almost counter intuitive, but the time for government austerity is when the economy is going well.

In the UK there is going to be continued revelations and developments around David Cameron's relationship with Rebekah Brookes and news international that will probably end up resulting ina minister or two being sacked.

I'd be putting a few bob on Labor winning the next election there

I think that view is a bit short-sighted. As you say, the time for austerity is when things are going well, but unfortunately when things were going well in the UK the Labour government increased government spending to fucking ridiculous levels, levels that we can't afford today.

So yes it would be great if the government could increase spending but we've got no money. Also the "budget cutbacks", aren't really all that, it's just been trumpeted by the left wing press "aargggh evil austerity!!" when government spending is still going up in reality. The cuts are so minimal as to be almost non-existent, the issue was that largely left wing councils decided to stop library services rather than get rid of a few middle managers and that made a lot of headlines (which was of course the intent in the first place)
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^Yep...its all another left wing conspiracy except that the GFC was caused by right wing capitalists. and world governments are in debt because they transferred their taxpayers money to ensure the bankers who caused the collapse didn't suffer the economic losses.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/52...elf-defeating/

"Is Austerity self-defeating?

Austerity means efforts to reduce the budget deficit. Austerity involves higher tax and cuts in government spending. In theory, this should reduce the budget deficit. However, austerity policies also have an impact on economic growth.

1.Higher taxes reduce consumer spending
2.Government spending cuts also lead to lower Aggregate Demand, for example, public sector pay freezes reduce consumer spending. Public sector job cuts lead to higher unemployment
3.Loss of confidence associated with ‘austerity policies’ – encourages higher saving and less spending.
The impact of austerity policies will be to reduce the rate of economic growth and possibly push the economy into recession. This will increase the cyclical part of the budget deficit. Lower economic growth reduces tax revenues, higher unemployment leads to higher benefit spending.

Therefore, if you pursue austerity policies you have to expect a smaller reduction in the budget deficit because of these cyclical factors.

However, some suggest the negative impact on economic growth could be so significant that the fall in economic growth will outweigh your efforts to reduce spending. Therefore, despite increasing tax rates, and cutting spending, in some circumstances you actually see a rise in your budget deficit (as a % of GDP)."
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Originally Posted by Fewsion View Post

Pretty poor example there Griggle.

Because some people believe both?

That was pretty much Dubz's point.
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simple evidence - the sharemaket crash in the early 20th century.

US government cut spending - economy went into depression
they eventually eased off a bit - economy recovered
they reapplied their deep cuts - double dip recession
they spent big, on national projects like the highways system - America recovered and entered a golden period
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Originally Posted by Dero13 View Post

Yup

“Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right you meet the same idiots coming around from the left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

Yes actually. Both will start becoming more extreme and more than likely use violence as a key piece of strategy.

The targets of and type of violence being the defining factor - so no - blowing up foreign diplomats and shooting 70 native kids don't begin to look the same.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lowkeyandnude View Post

^ the current recession in the UK is a clear result of the budget cutbacks and a direct outcome of the government's policies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbb618 View Post

simple evidence - the sharemaket crash in the early 20th century.

US government cut spending - economy went into depression
they eventually eased off a bit - economy recovered
they reapplied their deep cuts - double dip recession
they spent big, on national projects like the highways system - America recovered and entered a golden period

pretty good posts right there. we can also look at australia in the recent years, right?

having said that, surely there are different reasons behind the UK government cutting back instead of spending? they've got nothing to spend, and no-one to borrow from? uncertainty of the euro? i'm no economist, so hoping one of you guys can help.
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Quote:

a new direction for europe or shifting back to the old?

If it is shifting back to the old.. atleast the EU get's the most swag flag on earth


What's actually interesting is the major failings of the EU.. also happened in the HRE. Getting a bunch of nations that have their own interests, ideals, cultures and problems to work together so closely almost as one unit never will work well.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TrainsPillsBreaks View Post

The targets of and type of violence being the defining factor - so no - blowing up foreign diplomats and shooting 70 native kids don't begin to look the same.

hey mate believe what you want but it looks like on this issue it's you v everyone else in this thread.
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Originally Posted by Spicy View Post

pretty good posts right there. we can also look at australia in the recent years, right?

having said that, surely there are different reasons behind the UK government cutting back instead of spending? they've got nothing to spend, and no-one to borrow from? uncertainty of the euro? i'm no economist, so hoping one of you guys can help.

i dont think thats the case...

"The UK's status as a safe haven for investors has cut the cost of borrowing by the Treasury to a 300-year low.

Ten-year bond yields, which reflect the cost of borrowing by the government, fell to 1.87% on Monday as investors fearful of the enveloping euro crisis reduced their lending to Spain and Italy in favour of the UK, Germany, the US and Japan."

Both sides of politics seem to be using the low yield rates to argue their positions. the austerity supporters say that it shows reducing the defecit reduces the yields and makes it chepaer to borrow...the stimulist supporters point out its cheap to borrow and stimulate the economy.
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fair enough, thanks for that mate. in that case, what's stopping them from doing some spending?
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