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Stadiums of Hate (Panorama, BBC)

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Stadiums of Hate (Panorama, BBC)
http://vimeo.com/43027040

A great piece of journalism here revealing the serious lingering issues of racism in Eastern Europe and how it's especially prevalent in its football stands.

This is pretty shocking stuff. There's no way the behaviour in the grounds can be excused and any concept of security and policing seems to be a foreign one.

I'm also interested to know whether the Indian media has taken up with the same vehemence the issues of racism over there as they did in Australia. The footage of the Indian students being bashed from all corners while nobody helps should be sending their press into a frenzy.

I know it's not a football issue per se, but when it happens at their games authorities need to do a lot more because football has too many PR disasters on and off the field which for people like my dad absolutely make him resent the game compared to the Aussie football codes.

In its simplest terms these countries are where places like England and Australia were decades ago in terms of racial inclusion, multiculturalism and acceptance. We've come along way and they still have far to go, but with that in mind the change should eventually come.

BBC editorial of the episode.
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I saw the story, those places seem ideal incubators for fascist hatred/violence. As for the Indian media reaction to incidents in Australia Vs Eastern Europe it's not surprising there is an inconsistent approach. After all we are closely aligned with Indias previous colonial rulers and as for eastern europe it may be a case of simply "whats the point in even saying anything?"
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for the record, those poland or ukraine football bogans are not too different to something like the UK conference national league where you get swarms of EDL chavs rooting for certain teams and if you just happen to be a muslim and passing through the area after the match you will get beaten within an inch of death.

i'm still disappointed by any form of racism, regardless where it originates. really just shouldn't happen in the first place.
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Last edited by Spicy: 13-Jun-12 at 05:28pm

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yeah, to imply the poms are above casual racism and associate violence is inaccurate
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Difference is, I'm assuming, is that it's been largely stamped out at the grounds in England. 2000 people doing the Nazi salute in a grandstand is unfathomable there I'm sure, especially without any sort of official response and punishment.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

I'm also interested to know whether the Indian media has taken up with the same vehemence the issues of racism over there as they did in Australia. The footage of the Indian students being bashed from all corners while nobody helps should be sending their press into a frenzy.

They don't play cricket in Eastern Europe which I expect has something to do with it.

Australians and the English on the other hand do play cricket, so we are fair game for their nationalistic media beat ups.

Plus there's the whole history of British colonialism which we probably get tarred with as well. But it's probably mostly the cricket.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

Difference is, I'm assuming, is that it's been largely stamped out at the grounds in England. 2000 people doing the Nazi salute in a grandstand is unfathomable there I'm sure, especially without any sort of official response and punishment.

Yeah and you don't get the crowds pelting bananas at the black players either.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

I'm also interested to know whether Indian media has taken up with the same vehemence the issues of racism over there as they did in Australia.


Correction Melbourne not Australia?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spicy View Post

for the record, those poland or ukraine football bogans are not too different to something like the UK conference national league where you get swarms of EDL chavs rooting for certain teams and if you just happen to be a muslim and passing through the area after the match you will get beaten within an inch of death.

i'm still disappointed by any form of racism, regardless where it originates. really just shouldn't happen in the first place.

Do you live in England?

I've not heard of this occurence, I'm sure we have swarms of EDL chavs around the place, but as for casually beating any Muslim to within an inch of their life, it's not something I've heard much of.
The media loves a good racist beating so given I read a fair few of the online newspapers I would have thought I'd have seen this more often.....
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The Polish are often a pretty racist bunch of people. I remember talking to an American Jewish girl a few years back who said the group she was with were heckled and spat on by the locals when they went to Auschwitz for some kind of memorial.

It's weird that there are neo-Nazis there. Hitler hated the Poles too, maybe even more than the Jews.

And yeah, there is almost nothing like that in the UK.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by gravyishot View Post

The Polish are often a pretty racist bunch of people. I remember talking to an American Jewish girl a few years back who said the group she was with were heckled and spat on by the locals when they went to Auschwitz for some kind of memorial.

It's weird that there are neo-Nazis there. Hitler hated the Poles too, maybe even more than the Jews.

And yeah, there is almost nothing like that in the UK.

I thought he hated the slavs, not the Poles?
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Poles are slavs, and they were given Danzig after WW1 splitting Prussia in two.
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a finger in the date is better than a nazi salute..........kinda sorta
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you can watch it here

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video...adiums-of-Hate
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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

http://vimeo.com/43027040

A great piece of journalism here revealing the serious lingering issues of racism in Eastern Europe and how it's especially prevalent in its football stands.

This is pretty shocking stuff. There's no way the behaviour in the grounds can be excused and any concept of security and policing seems to be a foreign one.

I'm also interested to know whether the Indian media has taken up with the same vehemence the issues of racism over there as they did in Australia. The footage of the Indian students being bashed from all corners while nobody helps should be sending their press into a frenzy.

I know it's not a football issue per se, but when it happens at their games authorities need to do a lot more because football has too many PR disasters on and off the field which for people like my dad absolutely make him resent the game compared to the Aussie football codes.

In its simplest terms these countries are where places like England and Australia were decades ago in terms of racial inclusion, multiculturalism and acceptance. We've come along way and they still have far to go, but with that in mind the change should eventually come.

BBC editorial of the episode.


Obviously this kind of thing isn't a fair representation of the majority of Eastern European football fans. It's the political hooligan aspect which is still a minority.

Eastern European federations have a different mentality to England and other leagues when it comes to racism. They'll crack down on it by fining clubs, banning fans etc but they don't seem to acknowledge it as a very serious issue. Just a different mentality.

IMO UEFA are more to blame than anyone for not removing it from stadiums. They're fully aware of the hooliganism in Eastern Europe but they haven't addressed it at all. They are in a position to tell these federations that unless they work with their governments, police, clubs etc to keep these hooligans away from matches, they will be banned from UEFA competitions on a national and club level. If they did that, you can guarantee these federations would be all over it. Unfortunately, $$$ talks and they haven't done this at all. Instead, they have given Poland and Ukraine Euro 2012 and Russia 2018 World cup

They are dealing with an insane number of clubs under a crazy amount of federations though. There is a limit to how much they can really do with the resources they have. They just don't have the balls to really take a firm stand imo.

Football is the most popular sport on the planet. With the sheer number of fans and players, there will always be problems. The reasons for it go a long way past football obviously. To explore the reasons why would take ages and cover a lot of history.

The only difference with the PR disasters in Football and the PR disasters in other codes is the sheer numbers of players, fans, etc.... It's played all over the world rather than in a handful of develop countries. Expecting fans in Russia to behave the same way as fans in England is unrealistic because they're completely different in every way.... I guess the power of such a popular global sport is that its supporters can become a reflection of the region they're in. There is more open racism in Eastern European football stadiums because there is more open racism in Eastern Europe full stop. It doesn't really have much to do with the actual sport at all.

People seem to forget that not all countries are in the same point in their history as us. Eastern Europe is still developing politically and socially. We can't expect them to have the same social expectations as us just yet. What we can do though, is not give them major football tournaments until the racism is toned down to an acceptable level by our standards. If it takes them 100 years, bad luck, they need to catch up and the worlds most popular sport can be a powerful tool to speed up this process if used correctly.

Last edited by DrugfuctDonkey: 14-Jun-12 at 03:40pm

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and yeah its not just an Eastern Europe thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Firm


^Religion, Heritage and Football. 3 things that mean a lot to many people. Obviously they'll overlap sometimes.

20,000 fans at Ibrox singing the famine song is just as fucked up as 2000 fans giving the Nazi salute.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrugfuctDonkey View Post

IMO UEFA are more to blame than anyone for not removing it from stadiums. They're fully aware of the hooliganism in Eastern Europe but they haven't addressed it at all. They are in a position to tell these federations that unless they work with their governments, police, clubs etc to keep these hooligans away from matches, they will be banned from UEFA competitions on a national and club level. If they did that, you can guarantee these federations would be all over it. Unfortunately, $$$ talks and they haven't done this at all. Instead, they have given Poland and Ukraine Euro 2012 and Russia 2018 World cup

Yep.

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Originally Posted by DrugfuctDonkey View Post

What we can do though, is not give them major football tournaments until the racism is toned down to an acceptable level by our standards. If it takes them 100 years, bad luck, they need to catch up and the worlds most popular sport can be a powerful tool to speed up this process if used correctly.

Exactly.

-----------------------------------------------------------

It's fucking retarded that such large governing bodies such as UEFA / FIFA have come to the decisions they have concerning the selection of where to host two of the largest tournaments within their respective sport (talking about Ukraine Euro 2012 and Russia 2018 World cup).

The only conclusion that comes to mind is as you say, money. Money took precedence over the importance of not hosting major tournaments in locations where the racism levels are too evident to be bringing in supporters from all over the world. I'm not saying that racism isn't prevalent in other parts of the world, just that clearly (and this was known before the decisions were made) that Poland, Ukraine, and Russia do not deserve the privilege and right to hold these competitions.

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if you selected a host country based on racism, football would not have any countries to host any events. Italy, Greece, Holland, France, Germany, England, Spain, Scotland etc are all much the same
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

if you selected a host country based on racism, football would not have any countries to host any events. Italy, Greece, Holland, France, Germany, England, Spain, Scotland etc are all much the same

Its not about just basing it on the existence of Racism in a country. Its about basing it on the acknowledgement and steps taken by national federations to minimise racism in the game in that country.

Holland, France, Germany, England, Scotland and Italy have federations which take the matter very seriously. Spain have some work to do whilst the Greek federation/league is as fucked as Eastern Europe.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubz View Post

Do you live in England?

I've not heard of this occurence, I'm sure we have swarms of EDL chavs around the place, but as for casually beating any Muslim to within an inch of their life, it's not something I've heard much of.
The media loves a good racist beating so given I read a fair few of the online newspapers I would have thought I'd have seen this more often.....

yeah, actually i do.

and the beating within an inch of their life is this thing we sometimes call hyperbole.

carry on, old chap.

e; oh i just did a quick search on youtube and seems there are plenty of clips of your mates heckling brown people. welp, see ya!
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Last edited by Spicy: 14-Jun-12 at 05:12pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Spicy View Post

yeah, actually i do.

and the beating within an inch of their life is this thing we sometimes call hyperbole.

carry on, old chap.

e; oh i just did a quick search on youtube and seems there are plenty of clips of your mates heckling brown people. welp, see ya!

I live in England too and I've never really seen this with football fans but EDL is different I guess as they are basically just a front for a KKK type organization . I'd say there are more clashes with white English opposing the EDL at their rallies than with EDL going around picking on non white English.

When football fans are about, all they do is chant and mouth off mostly. Didn't the rave era end hooliganism to a certain extent in England anyways?

Polish media downplay Warsaw football violence

http://www.euronews.com/2012/06/13/p...ball-violence/
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sure most european countries have a hooligan issue and amongst the hooligans are organised skin heads but what the dateline report showed in the ukraine and poland appeared to be a complete nazi indoctrination of everone in the stands.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

sure most european countries have a hooligan issue and amongst the hooligans are organised skin heads but what the dateline report showed in the ukraine and poland appeared to be a complete nazi indoctrination of everone in the stands.

Showing the other side of the coin gets in the way of a good story....

Yeah that evil element exists but obviously you can't judge the whole Eastern European football community on that behaviour.
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^ nah you can't but it does seem that the nazis own the whole arena when it comes to live matches. like someone said previously there doesn't appear a whole lot else to do in those places so it's not that surprising.
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Of course you don't judge the whole audience or country on it, that's not on anyone's agenda. That's the smoke screen the Polish and Ukrainians are trying to make over this story. The fact that it exists at all within the stadiums is reprehensible, even just one person. One person doing that shit would make the news in Australia as a point of national shame.

They're the sort of racist old world actions and taunts that just about everyone in the west presumes are banished from public view especially when police are around, until they saw this. Although a minority, these countries have a lot of work to do.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrugfuctDonkey View Post

Showing the other side of the coin gets in the way of a good story....

Yeah that evil element exists but obviously you can't judge the whole Eastern European football community on that behaviour.

you can't, but i think the problem is that these hooligans dominate many of the polish and ukraine top division league matches. obviously these leagues are not on par with eg. UK in terms of skill level, but they are still the top league.

so that's a bit frightening -- first division football matches in eastern europe are frequented by racist scumbags, and seemingly some of the first division teams are based on racist ideals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf harris

I live in England too and I've never really seen this with football fans but EDL is different I guess as they are basically just a front for a KKK type organization . I'd say there are more clashes with white English opposing the EDL at their rallies than with EDL going around picking on non white English.

When football fans are about, all they do is chant and mouth off mostly. Didn't the rave era end hooliganism to a certain extent in England anyways?

yeah i think it's a bit like you described. we don't see any news reports of EDL vs muslim clashes or otherwise because if any of it came to light in the media, that would surely spark more clashes and outbursts from either side until things escalated out of control, be it a terrorist attack by extremist groups or just more violence.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

^ nah you can't but it does seem that the nazis own the whole arena when it comes to live matches. like someone said previously there doesn't appear a whole lot else to do in those places so it's not that surprising.

The nazi thing having a negative stimga attached to it is quite rare in this part of the world. I don't know how the poles feel as a whole but for the baltic states and Romanians most of them had grandparents who were actual Nazis. My grandfather on my fathers side was decorated for actions in the Latvian SS.
The nazis were and to some small degree are heros to eastern europe, swooping in to save them from the soviets. Alot of people still look to that as a form of nationalism and do look to any foreigner with distrust.
Eastern europe is very very far from multicultural, immigration tends to work the other way around here. You can go weeks walking the streets and not seeing a single black person at all.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

^ nah you can't but it does seem that the nazis own the whole arena when it comes to live matches. like someone said previously there doesn't appear a whole lot else to do in those places so it's not that surprising.

Yeah it doesn't look good thats for sure. I'm not going to judge the extent of it until I go there and experience it myself. The media hardly ever give the full story.


Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz View Post

The fact that it exists at all within the stadiums is reprehensible, even just one person. One person doing that shit would make the news in Australia as a point of national shame.

They're the sort of racist old world actions and taunts that just about everyone in the west presumes are banished from public view especially when police are around, until they saw this. Although a minority, these countries have a lot of work to do.

Yeah its fucked and yeah it would be on the news if it happened in Oz.... but its not like racism isn't in public view and doesn't get swept under the carpet in Oz. There is A LOT of racism here that we never really hear about on the news that SHOULD be a national point of shame.

We're still miles ahead of these countries but we shouldn't be getting on our high horse with our history. They'll eventually learn and football could possibly help this process.

Police and Politicians in Ukraine and Poland can try and sweep it under the table as much as they want but the fact is, the spotlight is on the problems with racism they have over there and it won't just go away once the tournament finishes either. The added attention should have a positive impact.


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Originally Posted by Spicy View Post

you can't, but i think the problem is that these hooligans dominate many of the polish and ukraine top division league matches. obviously these leagues are not on par with eg. UK in terms of skill level, but they are still the top league.

so that's a bit frightening -- first division football matches in eastern europe are frequented by racist scumbags, and seemingly some of the first division teams are based on racist ideals.

Yeah agreed.

Thing is though, these leagues are getting strong both on the pitch and financially now. They're already having success in European competition e.g Zenit St Petersburg(who have never signed a black player ) and Shakhtar Donetsk won the UEFA Cup in 08 and 09 respectively. With the added success on the pitch, there'll be added expectations that they address the issues if they want to avoid sanctions.

When you see clubs like Zenit, Shakhtar etc and their fans travelling to away matches in England, Germany etc in the knockout stages of the Champions League, the spotlight will be on them, especially after these Euro's. If they majorly fuck up, UEFA's knee-jerk reaction to the negative media will be heavy sanctions. Not what the owners of these clubs need for their business and potentially a catalyst for a real clampdown on some of the behaviour.
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I'll caveat this post by stating that some of the stuff shown in that doco is absolutely disgusting, and anything that highlights these kinds of incidents to the wider community is a good thing.

That said, a number of the incidents depicted in Poland are misrepresented. The clashes with police have nothing to do with racism, and are a result of police suppression of supporter culture in Poland in the lead up to the Euros. This was less so about the racism and more about sanitising the image of Polish football to appease UEFA and those suggesting the Euros shouldn't be held in Poland. Turning the ultras offside by cracking down on them on a wider scale, rather than weeding out the minority racists has only radicalised the wider ultra groups and resulted in these clashes with authorities.

I'm not making excuses for the attacks on police, but trying to put some of the images shown in context. If these guys are getting the shit kicked out of them by police every other week, they're not going to turn around and take it.

Playing up the "Welcome to hell" welcome in Warsaw as if it has some kind of racist overtone is just weak and poor journalism - it's a pretty common ultra theme worldwide and has nothing at all to do with racism.

All things aside, giving the tournament to Poland and Ukraine was a massive cock-up by UEFA, but if it serves to bring some of these issues to the fore and encourage some kind of change in attitude, then it might just be for the better.
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Last edited by nickko: 14-Jun-12 at 10:27pm

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He explained that the clashes outside were because rival supporters weren't allowed in.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...ualifiers.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...-violence.html
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UEFA are to blame as well.

So it's Russia's national day. Oh, let's schedule a game against bitter rivals Poland, at home in Poland...

That should do the trick...
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