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Interesting (SEE: idiotic) move by Labor

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-0...greens/4117706

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Federal Climate Change Minister Greg Combet has backed other party figures who have distanced Labor from the Greens amid a stoush over preference deals.

New South Wales Labor secretary Sam Dastyari and Australian Workers Union secretary Paul Howes both criticised the Greens at the weekend as "extremists" after Victorian Labor decided to preference Family First ahead of the Greens in a state by-election for the seat of Melbourne.

Mr Dastyari said he would move a motion at the state conference this weekend to preference the Greens last at the next federal election, while Mr Howes called the Greens the most dangerous fringe group in Australian politics and urged Labor in other states to follow Victoria's lead.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard says it is up to the organisational wing of the party to decide whether to put the Greens last on Labor's how-to-vote cards.

Now Mr Combet has responded to questions about Labor's relationship with the Greens, saying the two parties have different values.

"The Labor Party is a different political organisation with a long and proud history," he told the ABC.

"We've been enormously important in the history of this country. The Greens are some other show, I'm not interested in them.

"I'm Labor and Labor will be distinguishing itself from the Greens, there's no doubt about that.

"To be honest I don't spend too much time thinking about the Greens, I've got a lot of work to do implementing important reforms."

Mr Combet said the issue of preferencing was determined at the organisational level of the Labor Party.

And he rejected the notion that the two parties had an "alliance" at a federal level.

This is surely a shot in the foot for Labor. Aligning themselves with Family First as opposed to the Greens? Aren't Family First kind of like a LNP-lite? They are truly alienating themselves from their centre-left base. As was mentioned by Adam Bandt, this seems like a another gift from the Heavens for Tony Abbot to sink his teeth into.

However, I'm no analyst... what do YOUSE guys thinkses?
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Paul Howse is right, the Greens are the most dangerous fringe group in Australian politics and i don't blame labor for distancing themselves from that rabid bunch. Christine Milne is a pathetic politician
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if labor push to the right, the lnp push even further (shooting asylum seekers next i guess), fuck me this place is going to the dogs
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I think they're just trying to claw back a lot of the vote that has been lost to the LNP over the past 2 years.

Getting votes back off the greens won't win them the next election because it won't reduce the LNP primary. Also they're probably taking a punt that they won't lose any more votes to the Greens in the next election.

If they manage to persuade Labor/LNP swing voters back to the ALP they won't only just increase their own primary but it will also reduce the LNP.

Distancing themselves from the Greens makes the ALP more attractive to the centre voters.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

Paul Howse is right, the Greens are the most dangerous fringe group in Australian politics and i don't blame labor for distancing themselves from that rabid bunch. Christine Milne is a pathetic politician

*Howes

so you're voting Labor now hey Buffy?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Weinertron View Post

Interesting (SEE: idiotic) move by Labor

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-0...greens/4117706



This is surely a shot in the foot for Labor. Aligning themselves with Family First as opposed to the Greens? Aren't Family First kind of like a LNP-lite? They are truly alienating themselves from their centre-left base. As was mentioned by Adam Bandt, this seems like a another gift from the Heavens for Tony Abbot to sink his teeth into.

However, I'm no analyst... what do YOUSE guys thinkses?

Terrible decision. I am a Labor/Greens voter for the most part. What I heard from the ALP when I first read about this is that they think I'm an extremist because I like some Green policies. I don't think that a majority of their policies are extreme.

For the ALP to consider preferencing Family First over the Greens is fucking disgraceful.

Howse? Pffft! The dude is an obvious big-head with over-inflated levels of self-importance.

This all goes back to Gillard saying that Greens voters don't know the value of hard work and family. A disgraceful slur against about 1 million Australian voters.
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The ALP: Pro-illegal wars, pro-censorship, anti-equality

The Greens: None of the above

It's about time the ALP stopped pretending they are in any way 'progressive'...
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

This all goes back to Gillard saying that Greens voters don't know the value of hard work and family. A disgraceful slur against about 1 million Australian voters.

pretty accurate though
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Originally Posted by custaro View Post

The ALP: Pro-illegal wars, pro-censorship, anti-equality

Far more pro-censorship than the Libs.....and always have been.
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I think it's important to remember that Labor has only been a green party on certain issues at certain times. Labor was an industrial left party not a green left party.

And now there is not much left, left, anyway. Labor is a Third Way party.
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You get the feeling it would be a perfect time for the Democrats to come back into play
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Quote:

Originally Posted by buffed View Post

pretty accurate though



No, actually:


Quote:

According to the last two election surveys Greens voters are more likely to be in paid work — and have less free time — than the voters of any other party.............. women who vote Green are the more likely to be in fulltime paid work than their sisters who vote for other parties.

http://newmatilda.com/2011/05/02/party-workers

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"the most dangerous fringe group in Australian politics" How absurd. Who the fuck are they the Neo Nazi/Fascist/Communist/KillPuppies party?

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I killed all my family because they wouldn't suck my dick.

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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

No, actually:

A left-wing website which has several Greens MP's / members as regular contributors produced a glowing report on Greens voters? No, of course they wouldnt be biased
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Originally Posted by Davomaxi View Post

"the most dangerous fringe group in Australian politics" How absurd. Who the fuck are they the Neo Nazi/Fascist/Communist/KillPuppies party?

now that there is no communist party, those crazy's have thrown their lot in with the greens. Lee Rhiannon and co...........about as close to communist as you can get.

reds under the bed.....
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Originally Posted by austraboy View Post

You get the feeling it would be a perfect time for the Democrats to come back into play

It’s a damn shame that a fringe party like the Greens stepped into the vacuum that was created by the implosion of the Democrats. Being the third option and the alternative to the major parties gave them a perceived legitimacy that was undeserved. Hopefully with Bob Brown gone their legitimacy will fade.
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Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

A left-wing website which has several Greens MP's / members as regular contributors produced a glowing report on Greens voters? No, of course they wouldnt be biased

While I'm all for pointing out institutionalised bias, is that research actually wrong? It's not enough to point out the existence of bias if you're going to discount something like that, point out the instance(s) at which you believe the bias has distorted the results.

Because in this instance, the data has come directly from http://www.assda.edu.au/index.html, which an Australian government organisation. I'd be inclined to believe it.

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Originally Posted by B_e_de View Post

It's the same as going out on a busy street and looking at the people around you, most of them are fgts.

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Originally Posted by trist View Post

It’s a damn shame that a fringe party like the Greens stepped into the vacuum that was created by the implosion of the Democrats. Being the third option and the alternative to the major parties gave them a perceived legitimacy that was undeserved. Hopefully with Bob Brown gone their legitimacy will fade.

not with climate change happening they wont
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Quote:

Originally Posted by YossarianIsSane View Post

is that research actually wrong



if he doesn't like it then it must be wrong
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Quote:

Originally Posted by YossarianIsSane View Post

While I'm all for pointing out institutionalised bias, is that research actually wrong? It's not enough to point out the existence of bias if you're going to discount something like that, point out the instance(s) at which you believe the bias has distorted the results.

Because in this instance, the data has come directly from http://www.assda.edu.au/index.html, which an Australian government organisation. I'd be inclined to believe it.

Anyhoo, pet hate of mine.

Well no, he's pointing out that Greens voters are generally younger (18 - 30) and in turn have a slightly higher proportion of "workers" than the other 2 major parties whose voter support bases include retired folks. Well, no shit, and you can cherrypick virtually any statical data to come up with an argument that suits your agenda. That's not my issue.

The way the article is written smacks of partisan propaganda, and that it's composed by a former Greens candidate I would expect nothing less. But hey, if you don't mind a bit of that I'm sure you could jump on the Young Liberals website and dig up an article espousing the wonderful virtues of Liberal voters. Just don't be linking it as though it's any sort of objective research.
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Are they different from workers?


Sounds like you're just being a bit of a crybaby now that you've been shown that green voters aren't all pot addled dole scum like the conservative borg collective would have us believe.
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Originally Posted by robin78 View Post

Are they different from workers?


Sounds like you're just being a bit of a crybaby now that you've been shown that green voters aren't all pot addled dole scum like the conservative borg collective would have us believe.

The Greens membership and supporter base has always had a large proportion of privileged highly educated urbanites. Leading comfortable self-righteous lives, insulated from the more grim realities.
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Originally Posted by trist View Post

The Greens membership and supporter base has always had a large proportion of privileged highly educated urbanites. Leading comfortable self-righteous lives, insulated from the more grim realities.

possibly the most pretentious post I have ever read on here, how is life in the coal mine trist?
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^ haha....yeah

I may have been trolling a little bit....
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It seriously just doesn't make any sense, claiming that Green policy is extreme and distancing themselves from that, only to preference Family First who are by far, the biggest nut jobs out there.
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Family First have branded themselves unbelievably well. My best friend (Filipino with a MASSIVE FAMILY) called me up before the last election. We were casually discussing stuff and then she pipes up "I'm voting for Family First" I was all like WTF? She's like "Yeah I love my family and they mean so much to me so I'll vote for the party that puts them first"

I had to carefully explain to her what their actual policies are and what they actually stand for. After I advised her of all that, she decided to not vote for them as they did not reflect ANY of her political leanings (she's not very into politics mind you) and it was generally false advertising.

So there you have it. People who are politically impotent vote for them purely on the name. It's like going to a Flemington race meet.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Weinertron View Post

Family First have branded themselves unbelievably well. My best friend (Filipino with a MASSIVE FAMILY) called me up before the last election. We were casually discussing stuff and then she pipes up "I'm voting for Family First" I was all like WTF? She's like "Yeah I love my family and they mean so much to me so I'll vote for the party that puts them first"

I had to carefully explain to her what their actual policies are and what they actually stand for. After I advised her of all that, she decided to not vote for them as they did not reflect ANY of her political leanings (she's not very into politics mind you) and it was generally false advertising.

So there you have it. People who are politically impotent vote for them purely on the name. It's like going to a Flemington race meet.

This is why voting should not be compulsory.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

The Greens membership and supporter base has always had a large proportion of privileged highly educated urbanites. Leading comfortable self-righteous lives, insulated from the more grim realities.

Ahhh. So it's either dole bludging hippies, or insulated privledged urbanites. No room for middle ground. Got it. What grim realities am I then insulated from?

Fair enough if you're trolling but seriously, grim realities?

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Originally Posted by tapout View Post

It seriously just doesn't make any sense, claiming that Green policy is extreme and distancing themselves from that, only to preference Family First who are by far, the biggest nut jobs out there.

Frankly very little the NSW right does lately makes any sense to me. http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/po...710-21sqh.html

Melissa Parkes is pretty much on the money. The Arbib/Bitar crony-ism and complete inability to articulate rationale for policy is what's wrong with Labor. Not the Greens.

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Originally Posted by B_e_de View Post

It's the same as going out on a busy street and looking at the people around you, most of them are fgts.

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Ahhh. So it's either dole bludging hippies, or insulated privledged urbanites. No room for middle ground. Got it. What grim realities am I then insulated from?

well, they are a party of the fringe.....
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Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

Well no, he's pointing out that Greens voters are generally younger (18 - 30) and in turn have a slightly higher proportion of "workers" than the other 2 major parties whose voter support bases include retired folks. Well, no shit, and you can cherrypick virtually any statical data to come up with an argument that suits your agenda. That's not my issue.

The way the article is written smacks of partisan propaganda, and that it's composed by a former Greens candidate I would expect nothing less. But hey, if you don't mind a bit of that I'm sure you could jump on the Young Liberals website and dig up an article espousing the wonderful virtues of Liberal voters. Just don't be linking it as though it's any sort of objective research.

Sorry, this argument began when buffed glibly agreed with Gillard's statement that Greens voters (1m at the last election) don't know the value of family and hard work, yet somehow this has been treated seriously. Why should Greens voters have to defend themselves against such a disgraceful slur just because they had the temerity to exercise their democratic rights?
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well, they are a party of the fringe.....

Depends. If they can maintain what they have, even improve on it, I'd say labelling them as fringe is wrong. If they regress, then yeah maybe.

I'm not saying I agree with all their policies, cause I don't, I just find the label extreme a bit of a furphy. If they were, and no doubt some Greens want to bring back Communism (a very small minority I'd imagine), then that would make them no more extreme than the HR NIcholls card carrying, IPA fan-boying half of the Coalition.
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Last edited by Geezah: 10-Jul-12 at 01:32pm

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I swear its only old people who actually give a shit about Communism, ive got a pretty educated group of friends, some of who dont particularly like the greens, but communism isnt one of the reasons why they dont like them, different era i guess but its just weird people mentioning the Greens and communism together.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Depends. If they can maintain what they have, even improve on it, I'd say labelling them as fringe is wrong. If they regress, then yeah maybe.

I'm not saying I agree with all their policies, cause I don't, I just find the label extreme a bit of a furphy. If they were, and no doubt some Greens want to bring back Communism (a very small minority I'd imagine), then that would make them no more extreme than the HR NIcholls card carrying, IPA fan-boying half of the Coalition.

Bob Brown moved them off the far left by strong high profile leadership and pragmatism over the past decade, and painted them as a legitimate alternative to the majors (which they are not btw). That was the only way they were going to get all those Dem votes and protest votes. I reckon under Milne they could regress, but people are so disenfranchised with the majors that the Greens could easily keep their primary vote by default.

Hopefully the Libs don’t preference them again ahead of the ALP and they lose their seat in the House of Reps.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

Bob Brown moved them off the far left by strong high profile leadership and pragmatism over the past decade, and painted them as a legitimate alternative to the majors (which they are not btw). That was the only way they were going to get all those Dem votes and protest votes. I reckon under Milne they could regress, but people are so disenfranchised with the majors that the Greens could easily keep their primary vote by default.

Hopefully the Libs don’t preference them again ahead of the ALP and they lose their seat in the House of Reps.

I think Milne has been mostly impressive and stuck to the Brown way of doing things (their intransigent, non-compromising stance on asylum seekers notwithstanding). I don't see them regressing any time soon. I was never a big fan of Milne but I have been far more impressed with her knowledge about issues compared to Gillard and Abbott. I realise that's not saying much but I think people underestimate her (both in her ability to forge new partnerships with traditionally skeptic [of the Greens that is] groups in the community, and her ability to be pragmatic).

The Greens aren't going to be a majority governing party for a fair while but to question their legitimacy, or the stickyness of their support, is based on dubious historiographic reasons.

As I said, I don't like all of their platform, but I think they have far better, more nuanced and realistic policies than both Labor and the Coalition on some issues.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Sorry, this argument began when buffed glibly agreed with Gillard's statement that Greens voters (1m at the last election) don't know the value of family and hard work, yet somehow this has been treated seriously. Why should Greens voters have to defend themselves against such a disgraceful slur just because they had the temerity to exercise their democratic rights?

Cassandra Wilkinson had an interesting take on the matter today, at the height of One Nation, Howard was careful to never slur the 1m Australians who voted for them, knowing that the parties trajectory into mainstream would eventually run out of steam and their voters would disappear back up the Coalition's backside. Similarly with the Greens, the ALP need to be careful in distancing themselves from them without pissing off Greens voters, yet simultaneously abandon their Green policies to woo back their traditional blue collar support base who have abandoned them in droves, and employ a strategy to destroy them in the same way that One nation was destroyed a decade ago.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 10-Jul-12 at 02:21pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

Cassandra Wilkinson had an interesting take on the matter today, at the height of One Nation, Howard was careful to never slur the 1m Australians who voted for them, knowing that the party would collapse and their voters would disappear back up the Coalition's backside. Similarly with the Greens, the ALP need to distance themselves from them and abandon their Green policies to woo back their traditional blue collar support base who have abandoned them in droves, while at the same time working to destroy the Greens in the same way that One nation was a decade ago.

I agree with this, although I think it is a mistake to compare Greens to One Nation. Greens are here to stay.
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One Nation are still around as well. If the ALP & Coalition can work together to preference the Greens last, they could join One Nation in the wilderness after the next 2 elections.
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putting the environment last would be a real win for the two majors
/sarcasm
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^^^Agreed.

Labor aren't hemorrhaging votes to the Greens anyway. It's the so called battlers going back to the Coalition. At this point they seem glued on, but I don't think they are (long term that is).

Rudd dropping the ETS without explanation, Gillard knifing Rudd, Gillard entering a formal coalition with the Greens, and Gillard giving in too easily in calling the carbon price a tax are all things that have cost Labor a lot of blood imo.

The only shrinkage I see in the Greens vote is, if and when, there is a radical change in global action on climate change: if there is a huge uptake in renewable technologies and carbon abatement schemes, whether by conservative or liberal governments across the globe, this will take a fairly core issue away from the Greens to campaign on.
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One Nation are still around as well. If the ALP & Coalition can work together to preference the Greens last, they could join One Nation in the wilderness after the next 2 elections.

No. The Greens is a 40 years party. There is a change in voter base that won't go away.

The Greens have offered open tickets before and labor has benefitted from putting greens last before too. This will be a decision based on numbers, not on alegiance. Labor knows many Greens voters will preference labor anyway.
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Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

One Nation are still around as well. If the ALP & Coalition can work together to preference the Greens last, they could join One Nation in the wilderness after the next 2 elections.

Equating the Greens to One Nation is lazy. I see no benefit to Australian democracy in a proper left wing party being extinguished. They aren't on the lunar plain like One Nation.
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http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...710-21t4f.html
good article
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Equating the Greens to One Nation is lazy. I see no benefit to Australian democracy in a proper left wing party being extinguished. They aren't on the lunar plain like One Nation.

It’s pretty relative though Geez. You are left of centre so you don’t see the Greens policies on the lunar plain. To many people many of their policies are most definitely on the lunar plain. Policies such as their Scandinavian taxation policies, their dangerous foreign policy ideology (such as ending ANZUS, abolition of the WTO, open support for West Papua and Tibet independence etc etc), their immigration policies, and many other silly ideological positions that are typical of a fringe party like the Greens. Their policy framework is still mostly ideological fluff that is easy to stand by when you are a minor party with no hope of governing.
Come with us back to those inglorious days when heroes weren't zeros. Before fair was square. When the cavalry came straight away and all-American men were like Hemingway to the days of the wondrous B movie. Gil Scott-Heron
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

It’s pretty relative though Geez. You are left of centre so you don’t see the Greens policies on the lunar plain. To many people many of their policies are most definitely on the lunar plain. Policies such as their Scandinavian taxation policies, their dangerous foreign policy ideology (such as ending ANZUS, abolition of the WTO, open support for West Papua and Tibet independence etc etc), their immigration policies, and many other silly ideological positions that are typical of a fringe party like the Greens. Their policy framework is still mostly ideological fluff that is easy to stand by when you are a minor party with no hope of governing.

Their policies of supporting abolishment are conditional, and the conditions are pretty reasonble in my opinion.

This party has over 100 political representatives in local, state and Commonwealth political positions in Australia, they are not fringe. Most of their policies are simply compassionate. Too bad we live in a country which is not much more than a sad copy of the selfish idiocy that is causing the US to implode. Why is it that the far right parties such as the Republican party and our current Coalition depend on the votes of the ignorant? Answer that simple question. Don't say it's not true because you would have to be a complete fool to believe Abbott's bullshit and apparently we have a lot of complete idiots in this country.
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and at least the greens have policies, the LNP have do what johnny did on aslyum seekers, and a bunch of no's, plus their idiotic cimate change policies
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill
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I'm actually astounded that people on here vote for the greens. I always thought that only the stupid or stupidly idealistic voted for the greens. if it's a protest vote, then just spoil the ballot paper. But to vote for the greens on any platform is just stupidity.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

Their policies of supporting abolishment are conditional, and the conditions are pretty reasonble in my opinion.

This party has over 100 political representatives in local, state and Commonwealth political positions in Australia, they are not fringe. Most of their policies are simply compassionate. Too bad we live in a country which is not much more than a sad copy of the selfish idiocy that is causing the US to implode. Why is it that the far right parties such as the Republican party and our current Coalition depend on the votes of the ignorant? Answer that simple question. Don't say it's not true because you would have to be a complete fool to believe Abbott's bullshit and apparently we have a lot of complete idiots in this country.

Yes, of course, if you have differing opinions, especially those of the right, you must be a complete idiot…
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No that is a terrible article… but the poll was funny!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by The3rdPlumpDj View Post

Yes, of course, if you have differing opinions, especially those of the right, you must be a complete idiot…

run over some of the far right policies you like can you please?
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill
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