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Poll: Your thoughts on Boat People

View Poll Results: Do you care about Boat People.
Yes, it's an issue. I prefer Labor Party. 7 14.29%
No, couldn't care less. I prefer Labor Party. 7 14.29%
Yes, it's an issue. I prefer Coalition. 4 8.16%
No, couldn't care less. I prefer Coalition. 1 2.04%
"boat people" are a non-issue overblown by xenophobic bullshit 30 61.22%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Poll: Your thoughts on Boat People
I'm curious whether people actually care about the politicians going on about boat people and which party you follow (to see if there is any relation).

Please vote
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Where is the option for goat people prefer greens?
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i'd follow boat people to a party for sure

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I take it that CARE = Stop the boats and DON'T CARE = setup a sensible policy of processing irregular maritime arrivals humanely? That's how I voted.
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Sorry, should have clarified.

care = you care enough about it either way for it to actually be a topic of poltical discussion
dont care = you dont give a shit about it and wish they'd just shutup
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It is a complex and difficult issue, no doubt.

On the one hand you have concerns about national security, "queue jumping" and immigration processes. On the other hand you have a humanitarian issue and Australia's obligations to Refugees under the Geneva Convention. I think it is fair enough that the government wants to deter people from making the highly dangerous trip by boat from Indonesia. However, as a rich country we should also pull our weight internationally.

I dislike the fact that the Asylum Seeker issue has been hijacked by politicians who play on Australians' latent xenophobia. There has to be a better way to do things than what we are doing now spending billions locking people up on remote pacific islands.
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if you've got the balls to come here in a shitty old boat and risk your life, you're awesome and you should be processed on shore.

if you can prove or we can find out who you are, integrate them into society. If we can't (and they are not children) then it's time for you to go.

taking them to some shitty island and locking them up, is just fucked up IMO.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Portal View Post

if you've got the balls to come here in a shitty old boat and risk your life, you're awesome and you should be processed on shore.

if you can prove or we can find out who you are, integrate them into society. If we can't (and they are not children) then it's time for you to go.

taking them to some shitty island and locking them up, is just fucked up IMO.

I agree. Save for the "if they aren't children" bit. I don't think we can send parents/guardians away and leave children here. But hey, I mostly agree.

Although, it is starting to become a "real" issue over a "confected" issue. There has been 22k boat bound asylum seeker arrivals this past year. I'm all for moral righteousness on this issue but if it got to 44k next year and kept on doubling I think there has to be a point, not sure what that is, where you have to acknowledge there are some legitimate concerns at what is happening.

I agree with what Doug Cameron said the other night that we should treat refugees, no matter how they come, as humans (because, ya know, they are and all) but if there are economic migrants coming by this imperiled means then I think we do have a right to knock them back. Just as we should be sending back the legal immigrants who come by plane who become illegal by working the system.

As I have said many times recently I have nfi how any of this is done but I do know you have to start making choices and have motion according to what is achieved by these decisions. They can not be immovable. They can not be stationary. They should be adjustable.
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Poll needs another option

e) "boat people" are a non-issue overblown by xenophobic bullshit

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by crabman View Post

Poll needs another option

e) "boat people" are a non-issue overblown by xenophobic bullshit

And...................

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make a reality tv show where they have to renovate the boats
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Quote:

Originally Posted by CircusMidget View Post

make a reality tv show where they have to renovate the boats

Tune in tomorrow for the biggest episode yet - the spare fuel tank* reveal!


* Spare fuel tank not included.
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Why don't we just set up an Asylum processing centre in indo? Have DIAC there taking and processing applications, save them the trip, and instead of paying $$$$ for a ride on a shitty boat, peeps can relax in Bali

Maybe I'm oversimplifying a solution. We probably need a processing centre in Sri Lanka and the Middle East as well
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Quote:

Originally Posted by crabman View Post

Poll needs another option

e) "boat people" are a non-issue overblown by xenophobic bullshit

Ever been to Shepparton? Lots of ex-boat people there.
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I'm not sure that I see your point. This is four years old now, but I think it's still relevant/appropriate:

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Originally Posted by Heraclitus

Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.

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I'm not sure I had a point

They should ban single bogans having kids before they worry about boat people.
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I think they need to look at illegal aeroplane people, student visas etc There are tonnes of illegal aeroplane people here on student visas that aren't engaged in study, at least the boat people just want to knuckle down and work.
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Yep, I'd be more concerned about the ones sneaking in via planes.

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Yeah but most of the people who come by plane are white.

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

at least the boat people just want to knuckle down and work.

in Shepparton no less.

They really are our unsung heroes.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by gonefishin View Post

at least the boat people just want to knuckle down and work.

Do you have evidence to back this up?

Because this Op-ed says otherwise:

Quote:

The Immigration Department's figures, released last year, revealed that five years after arrival the rate of employment - not unemployment but employment - of Afghans was 9 per cent, while 94 per cent of Afghan households received Centrelink payments. From Iraq, 12 per cent were employed while 93 per cent of families received Centrelink payments. Overall, households that came under the humanitarian program had 85 per cent receiving Centrelink payments after five years. The family reunion cohort had 38 per cent, and skilled migration 28 per cent.

Taken together, these figures demonstrate the way in which the boatpeople phenomenon can overwhelm our immigration program. We are allowing, indeed attracting, a huge cohort of unskilled Muslim immigrants who have not been chosen by Australian policy or process. But there are almost no unskilled jobs, which is why we stopped unskilled migration in the 1970s. If it follows even remotely the European pattern, this cohort will be characterised by high unemployment, intergenerational welfare dependency, high crime rates, social problems across a broad spectrum and a minority tendency to extremism. For a nation to create this syndrome by avoidable policy failure, knowingly and with full foresight, is remarkable. Nonetheless, it is also wrong to dismiss short-term security problems.

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They don't want to work, that's the whole fucking problem! They come here and dole bludge. The legal ones are the ones that do work. So what if they use student visas to do so, somebody has to drive taxis, man 7/11s and work in service stations, seeing as the people here would rather sit on their ass.
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Lack of unskilled employment will grow to be a massive problem for all Western countries. The jobs just aren't there any more.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

They don't want to work, that's the whole fucking problem! They come here and dole bludge. The legal ones are the ones that do work. So what if they use student visas to do so, somebody has to drive taxis, man 7/11s and work in service stations, seeing as the people here would rather sit on their ass.

And yet, somehow its less of an issue if these people you are talking about are 'Australian' ?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

They don't want to work, that's the whole fucking problem! They come here and dole bludge. The legal ones are the ones that do work. So what if they use student visas to do so, somebody has to drive taxis, man 7/11s and work in service stations, seeing as the people here would rather sit on their ass.

www.news.com.au

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

They don't want to work, that's the whole fucking problem! They come here and dole bludge. The legal ones are the ones that do work. So what if they use student visas to do so, somebody has to drive taxis, man 7/11s and work in service stations, seeing as the people here would rather sit on their ass.

Pretty hard to work when you're in mandatory detention.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

They don't want to work, that's the whole fucking problem! They come here and dole bludge. The legal ones are the ones that do work. So what if they use student visas to do so, somebody has to drive taxis, man 7/11s and work in service stations, seeing as the people here would rather sit on their ass.

Who will catch the fish?
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Primarily they ride donkeys but I guess they could sit on their ass if it was a last resort
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I gotta admit, i find it really really embarrassing when this issue comes up in international news, or i find it coming up in feeds from overseas on facebook...

Like this one; http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2013/07...seeker-debate/
or
http://m.guardian.co.uk/news/datablo...m-seekers#data
Or even this...
http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfre...lanka#comments
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

They don't want to work, that's the whole fucking problem! They come here and dole bludge. The legal ones are the ones that do work. So what if they use student visas to do so, somebody has to drive taxis, man 7/11s and work in service stations, seeing as the people here would rather sit on their ass.

lol, dude you have to be trolling.

Anyway, if you were to (be a dumb-arse and) generalize, I would say you would have to go the other way. Illegals will do much harder work for cheaper.

All the cheap whores i'v banged have probably been illegals. Tell me that's not hard work ...
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that’s terrible spastic
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So this is pretty interesting, an SBS initiative that gives the user and interactive base to explore various aspects of the asylum seeker/refugee perspective.
It also includes interviews and excerpts from facility workers/clinical psychologists and such. I havent gone all the way through yet, so theres probably heaps more that i haven't mentioned, but do give it a peruse, im sure anyone interested in this issue will find it very interesting.


http://www.sbs.com.au/detentioncentr...r/introduction
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

Do you have evidence to back this up?

Because this Op-ed says otherwise:

true they are unskilled peasants but I doubt they are "work shy"

"Have the Afghan refugees been good for Young? Local opinions vary, but the dominant view seems to be that their contribution as workers has been valuable and that no significant social problems have arisen. The Mayor of Young and all his fellow councillors have been publicly supportive of the presence of the Afghans living and working in town. The Mayor invited all local citizens to put their views in writing, compiling them into a loose-leaf book at the Council offices. Of the 119 responses, about half were critical of the Afghan presence, half were supportive and just 4 were undecided or seeking further information. The favourable views were typically expressed at greater length and with greater sophistication of language than the critical views"

source: internet

I think the problem with student visas is that there is a substantial population of affluent overseas students whom aren't employed/pay income tax-their presence artificially inflates housing costs and they use infrastructure built by tax dollars.
I'm not saying they should GTFO but where is the management at a political level to offset the inbalances?
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I'd much prefer to be outraged over 'illegal affluent students'.

It's not a non-issue, but it's greatly inflated and we should be spending 90% of the time on fixing health, education, infrastructure, cost of living, environmental etc.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

Do you have evidence to back this up?

Because this Op-ed says otherwise:

Lack of jobs on its own is not a reason not to take on legitimate refugees. When a country signs on to the refugee convention it does not add the caveat "but only if they are skilled and there are enough jobs".

Those statisitics are cherry-picked, as usual. Here are some other important facts:

The skilled migrant program only accounts for 38% of immigrants.

The immigration department also says that unlike other countries migrant employment in Australia is comparable to non-mgrant employment. It also says "The early years of settlement can be difficult for a new migrant. ... migrant unemployment is initially very high, and it currently takes four to five years for migrant unemployment to be comparable with that of the general population." So Sheridan's quoting of the 5 year period is done out of context.

But that doesn't matter, because it is a humantarian program and we should not be heartless bastards.

By the way, it's an editorial not an op-ed.

Last edited by claude glass: 03-Jul-13 at 01:03pm

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According to Bob Carr the majority of boat passengers particularly those originating from the middle east are economic migrants rather than legitimate refugee's. Much the same as Latino's who step over the US border, Africans and Tunisians who travel by leaky boats to the Italian island of Lampedusa etc.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 03-Jul-13 at 02:23pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

According to Bob Carr the majority of boat passengers origination from the middle east are economic migrants rather than legitimate refugee's. Much the same as Latino's who step over the US border, Africans and Tunisians who travel by leaky boats to the Italian island of Lampedusa etc.





Dude, you heard that too? Guess it must be true!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

Do you have evidence to back this up?

Because this Op-ed says otherwise:

what a fucking shitty, deceptive op-ed and a shitty, deceptive dichotomy.

It took fucking ages to find the report itself which had these statistic. Its fairly uncommon for even the australian to not link or name reports they are referencing, and i would bet it was intentional.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publica...w-arrivals.pdf

so, although it is true that only 9% of afghans are employed, what the article fails to mention is that only 8.3% of afghans are unemployed and 82.7% are in the 'other' category.

There is no further information about what afghans in the 'other' category (Other including retired, caring duties, studying full time, voluntary work, or setting up a business but no income yet) are actually doing, and it does say that they are least likely to obtain a qualification. however, this is far from indicating with any substance that they have no desire to work and only want to collect welfare (if you subscribe to some ideologies, perhaps you believe its part of clash of civilisations plot driven by their religion to overthrow democracy and install sharia law). Although there is no breakdown for country of origin, the chart on page 27 shows that only 3.3 of all humanitarian entrants are not employed and not looking for work, most are looking after their family, studying, or actively looking for work. unless substantial evidence can be provided showing that they stay at home because they are a particularly lazy group of immigrants, and not for the reasons I outline below, then it shouldnt be claimed. This article, on its own, does not provide that evidence.

In fact, the report says that afghans, have the lowest levels of english, lowest written and spoken english, lowest levels of physical and mental health, and most know one or no people on arrival which has huge significance for their ability to find work. To me, this is enough to explain, but not accept as unavoidable, the high levels of unemployment and welfare. Of course they are going to find it difficult to find work, they are victims of violent regimes who have lived through horrendous circumstances and lived their lives in extreme deprivation, and I shouldnt need to remind people that this is a HUMANITARIAN program, these are the people we should be trying to help and provide opportunities for.

i am not surprised that these are long-term, inter-generational problems, ther are the same problems australia faced with vietnamese migrants in the 70s, they are also the same arguments made against Vietnamese communities. these problems take time to address. although I do acknowledge that there are limits to the ability to the australian government and community to provide the resources necessary for people to adapt to australian.

Last edited by mogmac: 03-Jul-13 at 02:48pm

Reason: grammar, clarity and tone down

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So, this article is interesting, likening the toughening of borders to the prohbition in america... meaning that basically it just creates and reinforces a black market trade (am i construing that correctly?)

https://theconversation.com/can-we-b...ss-model-15681

Also, they seem to offer some not solutions, but postulations on how we could approach this better...


I agree with the idea that there needs to be a greater emphasis on social inclusion from the very beginning. This would help solve a lot of the xenophobia/racism i think, as people become exposed to one another, the other is humanised instead of being part of a huge supposedly terrible collective, be it economic migrants or whatever else Asylum seekers are currently being labled as.
I also think that social inclusion from the outset is imperative because it helps build networks (a sense of belonging and community), gives people a reason to want to learn the second language, gives them a community to communicate with and i think, it helps with modelling of values/traditions/cultural norms, so that people can learn directly from exposure instead of perhaps some idealised explicit concept of what we think australian values etc are.

Quote:

A “applying for refugee status” visa should be very difficult to forge and valid for six months from arrival. It would include a specific right to work in a specified location as permitted, operating something like work for the dole where no commercial employment opportunities existed.

The visa could be held until determination of refugee status, and could be extended if circumstances required. Any breach of the law resulting in a conviction would trigger the return element of the visa. The visa would be used in offshore processing (for example, by the UNHCR in Indonesia in agreement with the Indonesian government) and onshore in Australia. Any person arriving on a regular visa who thereafter seeks protection should also go onto this visa.

Makes a lot of sense, and i think is actually quite a good idea... Allows people a sense of purpose, gives them an income, and means that they aren't confined in a prison languishing with nothing to ruminate on other than where they have come from and what has happened.
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This is attracting lots of questions on Q&A Jakarta on ABC1 right now.

They've discussed how Indonesia already had refugee-processing facilities, whereby foreigners in West Java can apply for refugee status in other countries. The panelists have emphasised that the customers of smugglers are people from the middle-east and are coming through Indonesia and Indonesia is no more responsible than Australia is. One panelist expressed difficulty accepting that Australians were concerned with safety of boat people rather than safety of Australians, with political leaders wanting to turn back boats already sailing to Australia.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

And yet, somehow its less of an issue if these people you are talking about are 'Australian' ?

You quoted my post yet you respond as if you omitted part of it from your reading. I had a snipe at the so called 'Australians' at the end.

Anybody around these forums knows that I value a good career very highly.
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My bad, i totally read that wrong... as you were.

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Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

They don't want to work, that's the whole fucking problem! They come here and dole bludge. The legal ones are the ones that do work. So what if they use student visas to do so, somebody has to drive taxis, man 7/11s and work in service stations, seeing as the people here would rather sit on their ass.

Totally missed the here. Sorry.
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All good! People in this country have lost and forgotten the value of hard work.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

All good! People in this country have lost and forgotten the value of hard work.


Where do you get that from? I'm guessing you just made it up.
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Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

All good! People in this country have lost and forgotten the value of house work.

fyp
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill
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Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Where do you get that from? I'm guessing you just made it up.

For the last year I've worked all over Victoria. It's an overwhelming attitude these days. Talk to any farmer and you'll learn.
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PM derelict for manual labour shit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

All good! People in this country have lost and forgotten the value of hard work.

Heaps of people in this country work hard, and see the value in doing so.

You must have forgotten that part.
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You must have forgotten the part where you're not supposed to troll in this forum.
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PM derelict for manual labour shit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Derelict View Post

For the last year I've worked all over Victoria. It's an overwhelming attitude these days. Talk to any farmer and you'll learn.

I'd be willing to bet my lefty that farmers have been saying that for at least the last 100 years.
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