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Poll: Your thoughts on Boat People

View Poll Results: Do you care about Boat People.
Yes, it's an issue. I prefer Labor Party. 7 14.29%
No, couldn't care less. I prefer Labor Party. 7 14.29%
Yes, it's an issue. I prefer Coalition. 4 8.16%
No, couldn't care less. I prefer Coalition. 1 2.04%
"boat people" are a non-issue overblown by xenophobic bullshit 30 61.22%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mogmac View Post

i really dont see how you can measure the greatness of an asylum seeker program by the degree to which it deters people smugglers. its not a criminal justice program, its a humanitarian program.

Actually I would say that's how measure it's smallness.
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Interesting article inthe smh today outlining refugees in Australian society in the longer term.

They referenced the Hugo report which was commissioned in 2011

The report found that whilst refugees have a very heavy reliance on welfare during the early years in Australia compared to skilled or professional immigrants in the longer term they provide greater benefits.

They are more likely to move to regional areas because of cheaper living costs and the fact they are willing to do low paid manual labor in much the same way as backpackers do.

Also they are more likely to start their own businesses and therefore employ other people.

I am using a phone here so if anyone can link a copy of the report that would be nice
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The report not only looks at first generation refugees but also second generation ones.

It also makes allowances for cross over countries such as Sri Lanka that has both skilled and humanitarian refugees

The report finds that while employment participation rates for first gen refugees do not reach Australian born or skilled migration levels, in the second generation they exceed them on almost any labor force measure
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This one? Fits with my perceptions.

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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Originally Posted by mogmac View Post


I'd prefer to support safe passage of people from Indonesia to Australia than to stop the boats. Im think, perhaps, some arrangement could be organised for safe trips. Provide accommodation at transit points in indonesia instead of detention centres. have regular, escort, and safe trips to australia that limit the number of people coming. provide incentives for people to take those trips and disencentives for people who make unsafe journeys, but those disencentives should not stop them from having their claims assessed and adequate resettlement in australia.

We could do that, and if it meant that people stopped drowning at sea then I could support something like that. I can't help the feeling that if something like this were to be enacted the amount of asylum seekers would go through the roof perhaps leading to such large numbers that people smugglers start selling that they "have the official option step right up."

I am clueless though to how you can be more humane at the same time as actually deterring people from making a very unsafe journey across the ocean.

I'm with Lamb, I hope this PNG works, as in hardly anyone gets resettled to PNG because they stop coming by boat. And I hope we start talking about asylum seekers and refugees as people rather than the inference that they are somehow demons disguised as humans.
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Maybe it all needs to be a joint effort, people need to be processed in transit countries like indonesia faster, with our co-operation, to avoid having to even worry about these issues?
Im guessing you all didnt see that the Nauru facility was burned to the ground?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226682841421

Clearly it isnt working, and i dont know why we insist on pretending that it is - let alone that it is going to be the solution to all our problems.
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can we please give up on the idea that Australia can have a “humanitarian” policy stance on people arriving by boat whilst simultaneously reducing boat arrival numbers. The policy stance must be deliberately punitive to kill the incentive. Even Rudd now has realised his enormous error (after a 5 year debacle) - amazing what a looming election can do.

The only other approach is for the Australian Government to increase its humanitarian intake 5 fold and provide a shuttle service between Indonesia and Australia. There is no middle ground policy stance that will solve this issue, it’s either one extreme or the other.
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Last edited by trist: 22-Jul-13 at 12:06pm

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Well that kind of dispels the oft-trotted out line that these people aren't country shoppers and are only travelling to the nearest signatory nation willing to offer them asylum / protection from persecution.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

Well that kind of dispels the oft-trotted out line that these people aren't country shoppers and are only travelling to the nearest signatory nation willing to offer them asylum / protection from persecution.

lol, no it doesnt. these guys will be going back to indonesia where they face this.. (jailed, bashed, no access to a basic services) http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/07/01/c...ention-centers.

that's no more indulgent country 'shopping' than choosing the flakes between a bowl of cornflakes and a bowl of razor blades is an indulgent food choice.

jesus, it almost seems that people think that just because they are from violence and derivation that they arent entitled to any better.
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It also ignores that none of the transit countries are signatories to the convention...

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How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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Originally Posted by trist View Post

can we please give up on the idea that Australia can have a “humanitarian” policy stance on people arriving by boat whilst simultaneously reducing boat arrival numbers. The policy stance must be deliberately punitive to kill the incentive. Even Rudd now has realised his enormous error (after a 5 year debacle) - amazing what a looming election can do.

The only other approach is for the Australian Government to increase its humanitarian intake 5 fold and provide a shuttle service between Indonesia and Australia. There is no middle ground policy stance that will solve this issue, it’s either one extreme or the other.

lol, had an epiphany that the right were right all along, did he? bullshit. he's taking advantage of a contentious issue. if he thought he could get more votes going the other way, you can be damn well sure he would.

the cost of the 'deliberately punitive' measures you support are far too high. we face no threat to national stability that is so large as to warrant such egregious violations on human rights and disregard for humanity. sure, its getting high, but you can be damn sure there are other ways. ramp up refugee status criteria, vigorously push asylum seekers to be resettled in third countries, provides incentives/ disincentives (processing time for claims/ family reunification/ whatever) to promote a shuttle service limits on the number of people who arrive by boat.

there is a whole litany of things that could be done that i couldnt imagine in my uninformed armchair pondering that smart experienced people could develop to address reduce the number of boat arrivals. but then again, im not intent on eradicating the opportunities for people to seek asylum in australia.

this is inhumane hawkish bullshit that going to violate a whole lot of people's human rights and further burden, it will destabilize the already overburdened countries that already take the majority of asylum seekers and refugees and it sets a terrible benchmark in a world that mostly already treats asylum seekers/ refugees horribly. it is not proportional to problem. it goes too far.
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I thought this thread would take me a while to read through, then I realised 75% of it was based around Kiron's inane ramblings.....
Can people stop quoting Kiron? I blocked him for a reason, I highly suggest you do the same..

not sure how I feel about this new policy.

On the one hand it seems inhumane to send them to PNG which is unlikely to be able to cope with the influx and where the potential for them to be seen as, and treated as, second class citizens is pretty high. Plus they just end up in another camp, where's the opportunity to be released into the community and get jobs and lives?

However looking at the problems the UK has with it's ridiculously lax border policies and inability to get rid of anyone once they've arrived (hell we only got rid of Qatada a couple of weeks ago) shows that making it easier for people to come to a country just means you get taken advantage of.
Given you can't stop the boats if there is the chance of getting into Australia, the idea of taking that option away seems logically to lead to fewer people using people smugglers therefore less boats, and fewer deaths.

But it doesn't deal with the problem of where these displaced people go, and from what I've read the majority of "boat people" are legit refugees so where do they go? End up on PNG? Stay in Indonesia? Or just wait for death in their home countries?

I guess Rudd had to do something, and he couldn't go with "we'll make it safer for people to come here" because the Coalition would jump all over him for welcoming "illegal immigrants" into Australia.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mogmac View Post

lol, had an epiphany that the right were right all along, did he? bullshit. he's taking advantage of a contentious issue. if he thought he could get more votes going the other way, you can be damn well sure he would.

the cost of the 'deliberately punitive' measures you support are far too high. we face no threat to national stability that is so large as to warrant such egregious violations on human rights and disregard for humanity. sure, its getting high, but you can be damn sure there are other ways. ramp up refugee status criteria, vigorously push asylum seekers to be resettled in third countries, provides incentives/ disincentives (processing time for claims/ family reunification/ whatever) to promote a shuttle service limits on the number of people who arrive by boat.

there is a whole litany of things that could be done that i couldnt imagine in my uninformed armchair pondering that smart experienced people could develop to address reduce the number of boat arrivals. but then again, im not intent on eradicating the opportunities for people to seek asylum in australia.

this is inhumane hawkish bullshit that going to violate a whole lot of people's human rights and further burden, it will destabilize the already overburdened countries that already take the majority of asylum seekers and refugees and it sets a terrible benchmark in a world that mostly already treats asylum seekers/ refugees horribly. it is not proportional to problem. it goes too far.

remember the Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers or three-wise men as they were coined by the media? They tried to find a third way that was tough but not punitive and they called it the “no advantage rule”. Sounded reasonable at the time, but it wasn’t enough to discourage people from getting on boats. Rather, it just placed thousands in deliberate go-slow processing limbo once they got here costing millions and resulting in overcrowding and rioting. Unfortunately, if we want solve the problem then only extreme policy positions will work.
Come with us back to those inglorious days when heroes weren't zeros. Before fair was square. When the cavalry came straight away and all-American men were like Hemingway to the days of the wondrous B movie. Gil Scott-Heron

Last edited by trist: 22-Jul-13 at 03:54pm

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Rudd's doing what Rudd does - playing the populist game.

Julia was slammed for:
1) The 'Big Fat Tax on Everything'
2) Not Stopping the Boats
3) The Faceless Men Running the Labor Party

So, true to style, Rudd has moved forward the emissions trading scheme, put together this policy on refugees and asked members of the party as well as the Caucus to vote for the leader.

It means that there will at least be a pause before the Libs get another raft of invective to throw at the Labor party.

As to the effectiveness of this policy - I think on the face of it, it probably will work to some degree. People will get shoved to PNG, instead of Australia. I doubt many people will notice, given the paucity of how many refugees arriving by boat. The bogans in Western Sydney will at least feel some sort of vindication that 'illegals' are no longer coming here.

I bet big on us hearing that the facilities at Mannis Island are shitty, underfunded, poor supplied and will be a terrible place to live shortly. Amnesty, the Red Cross and whatever other NGO will pan it, because I don't think it is well thought out.

However, I think that may well stand to be a reason why people will stop coming to Australia or trying, so I guess the comments that it will reduce the 'pull' factors here may well be correct.

I guess that seeing as it is a stupid issue that is so much of a beat up, then a thin policy like this will be enough to 'contain' the alleged problem - it was all show no substance anyway, so a magic bullet like this will solve it.
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I just can't get my head around why we don't want to take in genuine refugees in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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I just can't get my head around why we don't want to take in genuine refugees in the first place.

We always did until this: http://museumvictoria.com.au/immigra...launch-speech/

... which is actually a classic example of Howard politics
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I just can't get my head around why we don't want to take in genuine refugees in the first place.

Ummm... Coz all they do is leech off us?

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Originally Posted by mogmac View Post


jesus, it almost seems that people think that just because they are from violence and derivation that they arent entitled to any better.

Bingo! Apparently they should feel grateful that they are locked up 'somewhere safe' and should just bide their time patiently
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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

We always did until this: http://museumvictoria.com.au/immigra...launch-speech/

... which is actually a classic example of Howard politics

Didn't Hawke use the "we will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come" line back in the 80's?

edit: I'm not implying that Howard's rhetoric on this issue didn't make it the toxic issue that it is btw.
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Originally Posted by crabman View Post

I just can't get my head around why we don't want to take in genuine refugees in the first place.

I think you'll find there's only a very small percentage of Australians who don't want genuine refugee's to be settled in Australia.

There's an expectation that they should be handpicked by the government from official UNHCR camps, not simply granted only to those who have the money to pay people smugglers to arrive uninvited, at great risk to their lives and at our expense.

The majority of those arriving by boats these days are cashed up, well dressed Iranians, now unless they are all atheist homosexuals I find it very hard to believe that they are all genuine refugees, so does Bob Carr.

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 22-Jul-13 at 04:21pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trist View Post

remember the Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers or three-wise men as they were coined by the media? They tried to find a third way that was tough but not punitive and they called it the “no advantage rule”. Sounded reasonable at the time, but it wasn’t enough to discourage people from getting on boats. Rather, it just placed thousands in deliberate go-slow processing limbo once they got here costing millions and resulting in overcrowding and rioting. Unfortunately, if we want solve the problem then only extreme policy positions will work.

and what a disappointment they were. but one failure shouldn't be reason to fatalistically resort to policy 'extremism', as you aptly put it.

its disappointing that you think the only problem worth mentioning is the level of boat arrivals, rather than the suffering of asylum seekers and refugees. personally, i would much rather live with the problem of former than contribute to the latter.
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I think you'll find it's a very small percentage of Australians who don't want genuine refugee's to be settled in Australia.

There's an expectation that they should be handpicked by the government from official UNHCR camps, not simply granted only to those who have the money to pay people smugglers to arrive uninvited, at great risk to their lives and at our expense. The majority of those arriving by boats these days are cashed up, well dressed Iranians, now unless they are all atheist homosexuals I find it very hard to believe they are running for the lives.

remember that refugees are not people who are suffering from disadvantage, but people who have specific (meaning them personally) and credible threats against their life.

having money does not necessarily mean that you cant have a specific threat to your life. although it may give you more of an opportunity to take advantage than if you were poor. anyway, political and religious dissidents, who become targets, often come from middle classes/ advantaged backgrounds.

Last edited by mogmac: 22-Jul-13 at 06:21pm

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and what a disappointment they were. but one failure shouldn't be reason to fatalistically resort to policy 'extremism', as you aptly put it.

one failure? It was the last resort of an increasingly desperate Gillard to resolve an issue Rudd created with his glorious announcements within months of winning the 2007 election.
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its disappointing that you think the only problem worth mentioning is the level of boat arrivals, rather than the suffering of asylum seekers and refugees. personally, i would much rather live with the problem of former than contribute to the latter.

dunno, does drowning equal suffering? I say yes.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post


The majority of those arriving by boats these days are cashed up, well dressed Iranians, now unless they are all atheist homosexuals I find it very hard to believe that they are all genuine refugees, so does Bob Carr.


actually my housemate (who volunteers) said she came across an iranian family who were 'cashed up' but were also fleeing from serious persecution. The son, after getting a degree was threatened with being executed, so the family fled.

Its not mutually exclusive in any sense. The mother said there is wealth in iran, but not safety. So just because they have money, doesnot mean it is not a genuine claim.
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Originally Posted by Geezah View Post

Didn't Hawke use the "we will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come" line back in the 80's?

edit: I'm not implying that Howard's rhetoric on this issue didn't make it the toxic issue that it is btw.

That was just one part of the whole sorry Tampa episode, the episode where the incumbent government misrepresented drowning Afghani refugees as child murderers.
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one failure? It was the last resort of an increasingly desperate Gillard to resolve an issue Rudd created with his glorious announcements within months of winning the 2007 election.

true. thinking back, i actually think the maylasia solution had some promise. forcing the malaysian government to respect their rights, possibly even signing the convention which would (hopefully) do a world of good for helping create a safer environment for refugees in the region, plus, malaysia is a far more appropriate country for this type of deal.

as for your second comment, its interesting the 'problem' has shifted from 'people arriving by boat' to 'people drowning at sea'. stopping boats is the not only way to reducing drowning (also, remembering that asylum seekers dont only drown in australian waters). and if we are talking about reducing suffering, why are we legislating human rights abuse?

Last edited by mogmac: 22-Jul-13 at 06:10pm

Reason: typo and elaboration

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Quote:

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dunno, does drowning equal suffering? I say yes.

it's actually quite peaceful once you stop struggling
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Quote:

Originally Posted by smorchika View Post

Ummm... Coz all they do is leech off us?

http://au.businessinsider.com/this-f...success-2013-7

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Originally Posted by jarrardscott View Post

well, according to dictionary.com
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chilly is cold temperature.

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^yea, or my other favourite is, *but what about all the Australians in need* as if selfish people who care about no one but themselves suddenly have a social conscience. Makes me feel sick.

ETA: that article is so awesome Well done that guy!

Last edited by smorchika: 22-Jul-13 at 05:57pm

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That was just one part of the whole sorry Tampa episode, the episode where the incumbent government misrepresented drowning Afghani refugees as child murderers.

I know. The whole reason I have a severe dislike, bordering on hate, for Howard was the role he and Reith and that whole government made up a filthy fucking slander to stoke the fires of racism and xenophobia that are a part of Australia.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mogmac View Post

remember that refugees are people who are suffering from disadvantage, but people who have specific (meaning them personally) and credible threats against their life.

having money does not necessarily mean that you cant have a specific threat to your life. although it may give you more of an opportunity to take advantage than if you were poor. anyway, political and religious dissidents, who become targets, often come from middle classes/ advantaged backgrounds.

Of course, I'm well aware of that. The point I was trying to make was that countries like Australia have a finite number of refugee's it can efficiently process and settle. I believe it's currently capped 15,000 per year. Now if those all of those 15,000 arrive by boat, our capacity is reached. So we end up with a situation where those who can afford airfares to Indonesia, accommodation for several months, a hefty fee for a people smuggler and the smarts to know the ins and outs of rorting the system will be the only refugee's who will ever end up in Australia. Have's are in - Have not's are out. Meaning a poor Congolese widow and her three young kids surviving in a UN camp on ration biscuits will effectively be prevented from ever being settled in a country like Australia, simply because she doesn't have the means to buy her way over here. I don't think that's a very fair system.

Secondly, when it comes to Afghanistan, one of the poorest and most corrupt nations on earth, and where heroin production is the largest economic earner, it raises serious questions on how migrants from there came to amass their wealth in the first place. Questions that I don't think will ever be answered in a processing center. Ditto with other wealthy arrivals.

Thirdly, what does happen once the capacity is reached and more keep coming? Well we could extend the cap, but what happens when teh numbers reach 50,000 per year, or 100,000? 45,000 have arrived in the past 5 years and 25,000 of those in the past 12 months. You don't need to plot those figures on a graph to work out that at some point in the next few years we would have got to those sorts of numbers and we'd be forced to draw the line in the sand at some point, but how and when? The other alternative is house them here and wait for some other country to accept them. And if they dont, what then?

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 22-Jul-13 at 08:08pm

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^^ We don't have a cap. We set a limit we set under the convention. We can set that limit to anything.

The rest of your post sounds like cheap journalism, raising speculative rhetorical questions which don't do anything other than appear to justify bias.

It's the text that accompanies the above cartoon.
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cap / limit, you're arguing semantics. The rest of your drivel sounds like you're avoiding my questions because you don't have any answers.
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i think its a fair point to make. the unhcr process (as i hazily remember) designates people who are at specific risk, like at-risk women ( your example of a widow with children is apt) for prioritized placement through the resettlement program. I think that is very important. Also, I was looking at a picture of a refugee camp in one of the countries bordering syria today, absolutely horrific. So i really understand the urgency of ensuring places for these people.

so i do understand that there are probably people in greater urgent need that some of the wealthier people arriving by boat.

at the same time though, its problematic to say that a boat arrival takes the place of a person from a refugee camp. I dont have the time to get into it in too much details, but the numbers allocated for the refugee resettlement program and the asylum program (not the right names, some of the details might be a bit off too) were only recently linked together. Previously, there was a flexible limit to the number for the asylum program (depending on arrivals) and an allocated number for the refugee program which were both established seperately at the start of the year. Then they were linked together, so it was an overall 'pot'. I think inevitably they do affect each other, the differencce between 500 and 20,000 boat arrivals will affect how many refugees we can take, but the notion that boat arrivals steal the spots camp refugees is mostly caused by sinister government policy choices.

Also, for the asylum seekers being able to afford paying people smuggler fees. Often families will sell everything, pool and borrow money to send the person seeking refuge (often the male) and bring the family over through family reunification. Sure, they are in a better position than those who cant afford that, but if their status determination is to be believed, then they are in real risk. They might be in a better position that a family who simply unable to do that, but that doesnt have any bearing on their claims to asylum.

again, ill just underline how important I think it is that we role model (and pressure other countries to follow suit) good behavior towards asylum seekers and refugees. there are such good strong moral reasons for doing so.

we really should live up to these values we will chauvinistically boast about when the australian inevitably prints something about refugee crime rates.

Last edited by mogmac: 22-Jul-13 at 07:00pm

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This kind of says it all really https://www.facebook.com/Adam.Bandt....53894527979118
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Quote:

Originally Posted by crabman View Post

Stop being emotional and irrational and people might actually consider your views

I don't agree with that at all ! like to read someone who has some passion about an issue. All this rationalising makes me feel kind of ill. This is an issue that needs passion.
Originally Posted by Blinky-Live-


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Passion? Yeah. When it's wrapped with irrational straw man arguments, nah.

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Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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^^^ You know what really pisses me off ?? it's that most of you haven't even bothered to read the many links that have been put up. If you did you would realise most of you are spouting garbage. You are too self important to actually read them and get some real ideas of what is happening.
Originally Posted by Blinky-Live-


BAHAHA, you sir - are a twit, have you ever met Di?

She celebrated the invention of the wheel by going clubbing
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Quote:

Originally Posted by DANCINGDI View Post

^^^ You know what really pisses me off ?? it's that most of you haven't even bothered to read the many links that have been put up. If you did you would realise most of you are spouting garbage. You are too self important to actually read them and get some real ideas of what is happening.

In relation to, or more specifically?

If you are referring to the Adam Bandt one, the reason i posted it in actual fact was because of the ... one could possibly consider it to be, troll comments that kept gracing the wall... But, one also wonders if this is truely what a portion of the population thinks, in which case, it is important to know, what is being said outside of this thread, my friendship groups and like minded people i associate with.
~fin~
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^^I mean people should be reading the links if they genuinely care about the issues.
Originally Posted by Blinky-Live-


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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

cap / limit, you're arguing semantics. The rest of your drivel sounds like you're avoiding my questions because you don't have any answers.

But it's self imposed. That is my point. It can be changed easily. It's not an external constraint.

Of course I don't have any fucking answers to how refugees fund their migration. I care not one bit.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by DANCINGDI View Post

^^I mean people should be reading the links if they genuinely care about the issues.

I think most people are?

speaking of links... this is quite interesting... and worth a looksee - its photos of Afghanistan in the 50s and 60s.


http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2...nd-60s/100544/
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Their comments would say they are not unfortunately .
Originally Posted by Blinky-Live-


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Quote:

Originally Posted by DANCINGDI View Post

^^^ You know what really pisses me off ?? it's that most of you haven't even bothered to read the many links that have been put up. If you did you would realise most of you are spouting garbage. You are too self important to actually read them and get some real ideas of what is happening.

I think you'll find that I actually did read the link that Kiron posted and rebutted his claims using the information found there. That said, if he's not really reading the things he posts, should anyone?

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How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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See this is what I mean , you have brought it down to one link and chosen to argue that one. It's become a personal issue. And that is why I stopped posting in this forum years ago. It always ended up like this. I shouldn't have come back. There have been many links put up but no one seems to want to learn anything.
Originally Posted by Blinky-Live-


BAHAHA, you sir - are a twit, have you ever met Di?

She celebrated the invention of the wheel by going clubbing
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Quote:

Originally Posted by DANCINGDI View Post

See this is what I mean , you have brought it down to one link and chosen to argue that one. It's become a personal issue.

Because it's the only one where I disagreed with its use to paint a false picture.

(I read all the linked articles...)

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How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

الاستماع إلى ... ال التنفس المدينة.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by claude glass View Post

But it's self imposed. That is my point. It can be changed easily. It's not an external constraint.

I did suggest we could extend the limit, and you're still dancing around the questions like a politician. You side stepped similar one's from Geezah the other day.

if you had your way, what would be the upper limit that you would set, and what would you do if an exponential amount more than that arrived per year overwhelming the facilities?

Last edited by phoneyhuh: 22-Jul-13 at 09:36pm

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The Boat People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers
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Quote:

Originally Posted by phoneyhuh View Post

I did suggest we could extend the limit, and you're still dancing around the questions like a politician. You side stepped similar one's from Geezah the other day.

if you had your way, what would be the upper limit that you would set, and what would you do if an exponential amount more than that arrived per year overwhelming the facilities?

The current model of around 10% of the immigration total does seem rather sensible imo
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Would be nice if they let in an asylum seeker for everyone deported 'cause of overstaying or a dodgy claim..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiron View Post

How about you people actually learn a little thing called having a fucking conscious and not being heartless sociopath you piece of shit.

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