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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

why are you defending? What are you defending? Is it the unknown?
Yeah, I've seen dud DJ's on 1200's and CDJ's too. What's you point?
This simple beat matching you talk about is nothing these days. If you want to beat match use the 1200s.

There's very little difference between CDJ's and a laptop - Hardware and software, it's all digital, so why not make more use of that format with better software.
If you just want to mix one tune into another that's fine, but why criticise others for being different and claiming that they are cheaters and lacking in skill?


why? why not? why is software better than hardware? why make use of one but not the other?
Try and remember that creativity comes from your brain, not your computer
The guy on youtube that made the drum kit out of rubbish bins is more creative than the guy looping drum beats in ableton.
He knows what sound he wants, which bin and how hard to hit it.

Beat matching is the same as it has always been, difference is that you can now press a button and never need to learn with your ears.
Music and ears is what this is all about.

You are being just as critical as anyone else, the only difference is that you seem to have delusions of creative grandeur.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

Music and ears is what this is all about.

My point exactly. This whole '90% of Ableton DJ's are just cheap unskilled cop-outs' is the imaginary boogy-man thing. I think if you took the time to investigate the ways that people adapt technology to perform it might surprise you. Writing people off with a combination of imagined up statistics and an ideology that immediately discounts them because of your own lack of curiosity is silly. I'm big on music technology - so I'm all over anyone I see taking the DJ paradigm and pushing it forward with technology so have had much exposure to these people. If you insulate yourself from them and let your own fears define the unseen enemy, then yeah - you'll probably dream up all kinds of nasty stories.

Basically, you guys are still saying that if you're not beatmatching, you have no skill. I call bunk. Just beacuse you ain't farting around beatmatching doesn't mean you can't use a real mixer and doesn't mean you're limited to the same 3 tools which the trad crowd are. I just think you guys are demonising something which you don't fully understand, for reasons I can't quite comprehend. It seems that toilet trained is applying the limitations inherent in his own traditional process and applying them to the new, vastly more capable and flexible methods. The whole craft can be rethought once you unchain yourself from the old way. A cognitive leap that hasn't quite struck with some of you I reakon...

What's better - someone spinning two bits of hard trance off wax, or someone playing good music out of Ableton? Seems some people are so process-obsessed that the means now outweighs the end.

Last edited by Pro Tool: 20-Feb-10 at 11:28am

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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

why? why not? why is software better than hardware? why make use of one but not the other?
Try and remember that creativity comes from your brain, not your computer
The guy on youtube that made the drum kit out of rubbish bins is more creative than the guy looping drum beats in ableton.
He knows what sound he wants, which bin and how hard to hit it.

Beat matching is the same as it has always been, difference is that you can now press a button and never need to learn with your ears.
Music and ears is what this is all about.

You are being just as critical as anyone else, the only difference is that you seem to have delusions of creative grandeur.

What does "why not " mean? Get some spine mate and tell me what you really think.

When did I ever say to only use software? You are not reading my posts properly. As for creativity, you either have it or ya don't. Your comparisons are somewhat weak to say the least. You can't compare musicians to DJ's, does not make any sense. You also keep focusing on the bland, you can do so much more than loop in ableton live ffs.

What the hell do you think CDJ's are? I'll tell you because I don't think you know. They are basically controllers for software. The music (digitally stored on the CD) is the software. CDJ's have some basic software built into them to govern the controller platter, resampling, cueing, effects, and other basic functions. You are not physically slowing the CD down, speeding it up or spinning it back like on a real analog turntable. These tacky platters found on CDJ's are a simulation of the real thing.

I agree, beat matching is the same as it's always been, and it's always been a very basic DJ skill. Anyone can do it. Just the same as anyone can loop in live imo. Get over it.

You answer me this: Why are CDJ's better? I've always suggested using multiple technologies, you on the other hand seem to dis software use in a DJ performance.

The most sense you have made is by stating "Music and ears is what this is all about." Correct, wont get any arguments from me about this.

As for seeming to be suffering from "delusions of creative grandeur" what evidence is there for suggesting this?
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^^ Before it goes bad - can you girls keep it friendly? Cos this is actually a pretty good discussion on the topic. KTHX
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beatmatching is a skill.

if you remove that skill, you remove a barrier to entry that has always been a part of djing.

thus the scene gets flooded with heaps of knobs who haven't spent the time required to learn the craft. when learning to beatmatch you also learn about phasing, levels, flow and programming of a set.

and just because you learnt how to beatmatch a few years back doesn't mean you're justified in using software to mix for you beacuse you already know how to mix!

same goes for "dj's" who create a promo mix in ableton (obviously perfectly beatmatched) and put it out as a "dj mix". it's fraud. when you record a mix and play it back you hear the most minute anomolies in the beatmatching, even though it sounds fine coming throu the speakers/headies as you mix. a quality promo done using only your ears and brain is not an easy thing to achieve.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool


Basically, you guys are still saying that if you're not beatmatching, you have no skill. I call bunk.


almost - what I am saying is that it is 1 less skill, and that some people will never know how to do it manually, and that by missing that skill you are not being any more or less creative.
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Have to quote myself from another thread in here a little while ago... quite apt considering the direction the topic headed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Methodixxx

Probably wrong thread, but I think you've nailed it.

There IS so much more feeling from people who are so at one with the tactile nature of a given artform, or instrument, or in our cases, Djing.

It's the expression of that medium, through a mental AND physical method which, as you said, brings about some sort of deeper connection with it all.

And, really when you're honest about it, there is nothing as tactile for playing the music in the DJing game than turntables. Full stop. That's why I still use them and still have three 1200's sitting right in front of me... and I never really realised until now!



Shit, Fridays, huh...

^That quote is somewhat talking about the fundamental concept of using both sides of the brain simultaneously, or focusing your conscious thought on a very familiar and invloved physical activity and process (which you end up doing in auto-pilot), that allows the creative, artistic side of the brain to work in a more subconscious manner, intuitively thinking without the need for any cognitive thought process. Deep <-edit.





Before I get shot down as being backwards and denying my art to evolve through some irrational fear of advancing and better technologies... please don't bother. I've played a few live sets over the years (most being around 8 or more years ago I think, though...? But still write), and have always looked at incorporating relevant technology into my DJing set-up...

Currently when playing records at home (still developing a portable version of the set-up), via some big fat MIDI dials and sliders, Live 8 is being run as the most ridiculas effects box in history , plus jam / live unit, ultimate way of incorporating live 909 sequencing (individual inputs and subsoquently channels with full control of each 909 hit = proper live ), and so on and so on... also use serato for 2 of the 3 decks.

I hope the above has indicated that I am someone who would certainly embrace technology given it enabled a true improvement of the process described in my above quote, new avenues to add meaningful contributions to the end result (people dancing? ), or something else to create a better sonic experience for the listener.



PS. Just to note, I'm 99% sure the OP was specifically commenting on warping tracks to then use DJing... and not with Albeton. And it seemed to me, from memory (read it a long time ago now), that the OP hinted towards a suspiscion this "warping" was neccesitated through a lack of skill.


Edit-> Forgot to qualify the fact that despite the intergration with technology, I still use 3 x 1200s and a mixer, and them's the ways I likes it

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Last edited by Methodixxx: 20-Feb-10 at 03:19pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Methodixxx

Have to quote myself from another thread in here a little while ago... quite apt considering the direction the topic headed




Before I get shot down as being backwards and denying my art to evolve through some irrational fear of advancing and better technologies... please don't bother. I've played a few live sets over the years (most being around 8 or more years ago I think, though...? But still write), and have always looked at incorporating relevant technology into my DJing set-up...

Currently when playing records at home (still developing a portable version of the set-up), via some big fat MIDI dials and sliders, Live 8 is being run as the most ridiculas effects box in history , plus jam / live unit, ultimate way of incorporating live 909 sequencing (individual inputs and subsoquently channels with full control of each 909 hit = proper live ), and so on and so on... also use serato for 2 of the 3 decks.

I hope the above has indicated that I am someone who would certainly embrace technology given it enabled a true improvement of the process described in my above quote, new avenues to add meaningful contributions to the end result (people dancing? ), or something else to create a better sonic experience for the listener.



PS. Just to note, I'm 99% sure the OP was specifically commenting on warping tracks to then use DJing... and not with Albeton. And it seemed to me, from memory (read it a long time ago now), that the OP hinted towards a suspiscion this "warping" was neccesitated through a lack of skill.

You know what time it is!!!

Nice work, sounds really interesting. Good luck in developing your set.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Methodixxx

Have to quote myself from another thread in here a little while ago... quite apt considering the direction the topic headed



^That quote is somewhat talking about the fundamental concept of using both sides of the brain simultaneously, or focusing your conscious thought on a very familiar and invloved physical activity and process (which you end up doing in auto-pilot), that allows the creative, artistic side of the brain to work in a more subconscious manner, intuitively thinking without the need for any cognitive thought process. Deep <-edit.





Before I get shot down as being backwards and denying my art to evolve through some irrational fear of advancing and better technologies... please don't bother. I've played a few live sets over the years (most being around 8 or more years ago I think, though...? But still write), and have always looked at incorporating relevant technology into my DJing set-up...

Currently when playing records at home (still developing a portable version of the set-up), via some big fat MIDI dials and sliders, Live 8 is being run as the most ridiculas effects box in history , plus jam / live unit, ultimate way of incorporating live 909 sequencing (individual inputs and subsoquently channels with full control of each 909 hit = proper live ), and so on and so on... also use serato for 2 of the 3 decks.

I hope the above has indicated that I am someone who would certainly embrace technology given it enabled a true improvement of the process described in my above quote, new avenues to add meaningful contributions to the end result (people dancing? ), or something else to create a better sonic experience for the listener.



PS. Just to note, I'm 99% sure the OP was specifically commenting on warping tracks to then use DJing... and not with Albeton. And it seemed to me, from memory (read it a long time ago now), that the OP hinted towards a suspiscion this "warping" was neccesitated through a lack of skill.


Edit-> Forgot to qualify the fact that despite the intergration with technology, I still use 3 x 1200s and a mixer, and them's the ways I likes it

Indeed this thread's gone on a tangent, altho a related one!

So it seems what you're saying, is that you straddle both extremes of the argument - which is of course the healthy way to be! I wouldn't think of calling what you're doing as in any way backwards - I think the argument from my side is that fundamentalism is usually based on ignorance of the other - and dismissing the incorporation of technology into the DJ's craft - which may sometimes render some of those human skills a bit redundant for some people's process - is not something to be afraid of! In fact it opens up the possibilities for the discovery and pioneering of a whole new skillset, rather than treading the same old ground.

Take live sets for example - 10 years ago it was heresy to have a laptop on stage. Sounds a bit funny now doesn't it?

And Eros - I think we already had the whole 'barrier to n00bs' discussion a page or two back. Why so interested in DJing being exclusive? Why such a preoccupation with there being ANY kind of barrier to music appreciation and disemination? Call me a raging lefty - but music in all ways is something to be shared and appreciated by all and any, not something to be held in state behind any kind of barrier. Why is anyone who takes up the craft a knob?

Macc - I think the fundamental point you're missing lies in the way you interpret the word 'computer'. You see it as the enemy - as something which cheapens your fiercely protected basic beatmatching-as-ultimate-expression-of-human-creative-input. I see the computer as the world's most advanced, flexible and capable musical instrument. See my point RE:Live acts circa 1999. Why does the involvement of a computer instantly equate to less creativity to you? Again with the lack of curiosity and real insight into what's capable. Methinks you believe your own negative stereotype a little too strongly.

IN effect, if Macc is playing a set - am I going to enjoy that exact same set more if he's playing the tunes off CD and beatmatching, or playing the tunes from software and not beatmatching? If I couldn't see would I know? If Macc wasn't beatmatching, what else could he be doing? Why is it not OK for one of us to do it, but it's OK for Richie Hawtin to do it?

Beatmatching is the DJ equivalent of tying a shoelace. It's hard enough but if you practice a few times you'll have it sorted. Not on the same level as flying a plane. There's no 'license to beatmatch' - and I think that the thousands of kids who're doing it just fine is evidence to this. It's a skill that will always be relevant to some, and not critical to others. Just by virtue of no longer being a critical foundation skill doesn't mean the alterternatives are bad. Time to embrace the inevitable I say! Better to be the one on the forefront of the new guard than left behind.

Last edited by Pro Tool: 20-Feb-10 at 04:05pm

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where you are pulling that from, I have no idea. Selective reading perhaps? When did I mention Richie Hawtin?
Where did I say that a computer makes less creativity? What I did say is that creativity does not come from a computer, it comes from your brain.
Computer or not computer is irrelevant to me
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

Indeed this thread's gone on a tangent, altho a related one!

Beatmatching is the DJ equivalent of tying a shoelace. It's hard enough but if you practice a few times you'll have it sorted. Not on the same level as flying a plane. There's no 'license to beatmatch' - and I think that the thousands of kids who're doing it just fine is evidence to this. It's a skill that will always be relevant to some, and not critical to others. Just by virtue of no longer being a critical foundation skill doesn't mean the alterternatives are bad. Time to embrace the inevitable I say! Better to be the one on the forefront of the new guard than left behind.


Hah, very much so.

As far as the beatmatching comment though, I take a little offence. There is a vast range of application under the beatmatching umbrella. Sure, simple intro/outro mixing is almost mind numbingly boring and it would be far better for a program to take care of that while I go and get a beer...

But, despite that (and taking into account the quote in my previous post), playing sets of techno and the like on 3 decks properly takes some skill which comes from a considerable amount of practise. We're talking beatmixing entire tracks the whole way through the set over the 3 tunrtables, I've got a cd I put out around 5 or 6 years ago that out of the 24 tracks only the first, last and 1 track in the middle play by themselves; every other time the kick drum beats there are at least 2 tracks playing.

This end of the spectrum is somewhat removed from tying your shoelaces, IMO.




For DJing purposes only, I am just apposed to the concept of auto-sync... call yourself a live laptop performance or something if you want (just play your own stuff if you're actually claiming a "live" set), but how on earth does that relate to jockying discs...?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

And Eros - I think we already had the whole 'barrier to n00bs' discussion a page or two back. Why so interested in DJing being exclusive? Why such a preoccupation with there being ANY kind of barrier to music appreciation and disemination? Call me a raging lefty - but music in all ways is something to be shared and appreciated by all and any, not something to be held in state behind any kind of barrier. Why is anyone who takes up the craft a knob?

i'm not in favour of any barrier to appreciation or (legal) sharing of music, but when it comes to playing out, there a very limited opportunities, especially in my city. at the end of the day, you are competing against other jocks for a place on the lineup. i think to be deserving of that opportunity, you should be capable of beatmatching using your ears, on the night, when the pressure is on.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eros le Tardfack

.. when it comes to playing out, there a very limited opportunities, especially in my city. at the end of the day, you are competing against other jocks for a place on the lineup. i think to be deserving of that opportunity, you should be capable of beatmatching using your ears...

I Agree. Beatmatching is one of the fundamental elements that generally weeds out those who arn't truely passionate. Software allowing you to just sync becomng the norm, will only mean a massive infestetion of musically challenged teens getting gigs.
Dont get me wrong, plenty of really talented dj's can utelise such software to do amazing stuff, but i guess thats both sides of the coin.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

where you are pulling that from, I have no idea. Selective reading perhaps? When did I mention Richie Hawtin?
Where did I say that a computer makes less creativity? What I did say is that creativity does not come from a computer, it comes from your brain.
Computer or not computer is irrelevant to me

So your only gripe is the beatmatching vs warping argument? You sure get wound up very easily!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by cleatustout

I Agree. Beatmatching is one of the fundamental elements that generally weeds out those who arn't truely passionate. Software allowing you to just sync becomng the norm, will only mean a massive infestetion of musically challenged teens getting gigs.
Dont get me wrong, plenty of really talented dj's can utelise such software to do amazing stuff, but i guess thats both sides of the coin.

Ruby Rose is making me think its going the way of the musically challenged teens.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by camlv

Ruby Rose is making me think its going the way of the musically challenged teens.

The way its going, Ruby Rose is the least of our worries.
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Does anyone else hate making a mix on a computer , but LOVE spinning records ?

I wish I loved mixing on a computer, but alas the passion just isn't there. wEIRD !
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

Honestly if you think that beatmatching constitutes a higher level of skill than making good use of technology to improve on the pretty basic act of making two tunes play in time, you need to check what year it is!

Yet more old man 'back in my day' stuff. I'm yet to hear a reasonable argument against the use of technology to progress the craft. Just more anti-progress, anti-tech sooking. In essence it seems like jaded dudes feeling threatened that they ain't so unique any more. You know, once upon a time people said the same things about reading.

Disagree.

When you strip it all back, besides the tunes themselves, the most intrinsic part of DJing is beatmatching. Beatmatching was once a crazy concept when people first heard tunes mixed in together. Go ahead and automate everything else, but keep the beatmatching human.

When i started DJing the biggest and most difficult things was to beatmatch tracks.

When you start out it's HARD! Are we all forgetting that?

The satisfaction of mixing some tracks together perfectly when ur learning was one of the best things ever, esp when you had a bunch of mates around. I can't imagine the fun of DJing with your friends as you're all learning if there's no semblance of this skill to separate you all.

In highschool we'd sit around one of houses and have beers and a spliffo and we'd mix our records and there was a huge pressure to nail your beatmatching, esp after your mate just transitioned two tracks together seamlessly. When you screwed up, it was on you bigtime when your next mix came around to match those tracks.

You might aswell just take the skill out of this skill. (Having taste in music isn't a skill, it's inherent.) So basically if you say to me your DJing is more advanced because of this extra stuff you do by taking out the most basic skill of it, then quite frankly you're full of shit. The irony is great though.
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and re. the person who mentioned you don't need a licence to beatmatch. I'd honestly say it takes as long to learn to beatmatch as to drive! I've got mates who have been doing it for years and still can't do it 100% of the time - they've never had a car crash though.
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Walkdogz has pretty much expressed exactly how i feel.
I just cant understand the feeling of accomplishment in dj'ing without beatmatching. Unless your demonstrating some out of this world in depth layering, looping and effects techniques, how is it you actually feel proud or genuinely feel you've accomplished something.
I guess people do somehow get enjoyment and selfworth out of it, all the best to them.
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Can I just say that when I play out with Ableton I still have to beatmatch out of the previous guys tune or beatmatch if we go back to back for a bit at the end of the night. I think it's misleading to claim that someone using Ableton doesn't have to know how to beatmatch unless they're always the first DJ of the night.

Also for me, the pleasure of DJing comes from putting great tracks together in a way that works and layering additional percussion, samples, loops of other tracks etc. For me, Ableton allows me to do that sort of thing whereas CD / vinyl doesn't.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz

Disagree.

When you strip it all back, besides the tunes themselves, the most intrinsic part of DJing is beatmatching. Beatmatching was once a crazy concept when people first heard tunes mixed in together. Go ahead and automate everything else, but keep the beatmatching human.

Really? I see it the complete other way around. Go ahead and automate the beatmatching and keep the mixing human. That's the one thing which is going to make a real difference to how it sounds. The mixing is what's going to amount to the level of expression you have as a DJ. Beatmatching=on/off skill. You're doing it right or wrong. Mixing is nuanced and expressive and iondividual. Self indulgence is a common musical pitfall. Throw a 15 minute solo in there too. Wearing pants was a crazy concept once upon a time too.

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When you start out it's HARD! Are we all forgetting that?

I think we all do. But so is riding a bike, doing 100 pushups, cooking a souffle. All easily surmountable obstacles with practice.

Quote:

The satisfaction of mixing some tracks together perfectly when ur learning was one of the best things ever, esp when you had a bunch of mates around. I can't imagine the fun of DJing with your friends as you're all learning if there's no semblance of this skill to separate you all.

In highschool we'd sit around one of houses and have beers and a spliffo and we'd mix our records and there was a huge pressure to nail your beatmatching, esp after your mate just transitioned two tracks together seamlessly. When you screwed up, it was on you bigtime when your next mix came around to match those tracks.

I don't doubt you had some great times around the campfire too. It's not about discrediting your romantic nostalgic memories. I'm not saying beatmatching needs to go! It has its place. I'm still saying that its no longer that critical if you don't want it to be. And unfortunately, that's the truth.


Quote:

You might aswell just take the skill out of this skill. (Having taste in music isn't a skill, it's inherent.) So basically if you say to me your DJing is more advanced because of this extra stuff you do by taking out the most basic skill of it, then quite frankly you're full of shit. The irony is great though.

Well no, I'm not full of shit. I'm making an argument which is well supported by the reality of the situation. Love it or loathe it, the future I predict is most probably going to become fact. Sync buttons in Traktor, Itch, Torq, Ableton, more in-the-box mixing, new software companies, and legions of kids to make use of the stuff without the stigma of the old guard. There's a generation leap where all the new fangled stuff will be the norm. Some will always beatmatch, some won't - but if you're afraid of losing your gig to the dude DJing out of Ableton, you might wanna get used to it. Kick and scream all you like.

Hell, you can always grab the microphone and yell out 'STOP THE MUSIC, STOP DANCING, DON'T YOU PEOPLE KNOW HE'S NOT BEATMATCHING!?!?!?!?!'. Wonder how that'd go down.

Last edited by Pro Tool: 21-Feb-10 at 11:52am

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

Are you guys musicians? As a non-muso it's about 100000 times harder. For a muso with a good grasp of phrasing and using hands in time it's pretty straight up stuff.
.

So let me get this right, now you are happy to pull out the musician timing card, and that somehow outweighs the dj beatmatching card?
In a thread about warping tracks for djing
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Ha - you beat me cos I actually edited out for saying it badly. Knew you'd pick that. So no, I retract. It's too provocative - but with an element of truth in there you know.

Was a thread about warping, dude. I reakon it's really interesting to know what attitudes are towards this - and how most of the dudes in here are pretty strongly against the way the tech is going.

Rest holds tho. Beatmatching more important than mixing?
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50/50, 1:1 ratio of importance, you can learn mixing from tracklists and youtube just as easily

the process of learning to beatmatch is greater than the sum of it's parts
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Quote:

Originally Posted by base615

Also for me, the pleasure of DJing comes from putting great tracks together in a way that works and layering additional percussion, samples, loops of other tracks etc. For me, Ableton allows me to do that sort of thing whereas CD / vinyl doesn't.

funny i could've sworn dj's have been dropping samples and loops into the mix from a third deck for years.

unless you meant ableton allows you to do it beacuse you don't have the skill to do it using cd/vinyl + your ears.

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Nice use of snidey sarcasm, yet you fail. I use 2 channels for the main tracks and 6 loop tracks sometimes running 8 channels concurrently. Have you ever played on 8 decks? I doubt it very much.

Also I played with vinyl for 15 years before I started using Ableton and did you completely miss the part of my post where I said you still have to beatmatch when using Ableton?

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all i can say is fuck you ref you fuckhead

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Quote:

Originally Posted by base615

Nice use of snidey sarcasm, yet you fail. I use 2 channels for the main tracks and 6 loop tracks sometimes running 8 channels concurrently. Have you ever played on 8 decks? I doubt it very much.

This one time, we had 2 technics, 3 cdj, 2 MCs 1 KP2 and a smoke machine
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thankyou, i come from the today tonight school of journalism.

nah i don't begrude anyone making use of technology to expand on a solid foundation of mixing - what you're doing sounds cool.

my gripe is with the kid with his hands in the air syncing track after track in ableton (probably with live after his name), or as the thread initailly started - the dude warping tracks before buring to cd so he doesn't need to beatmatch. that's all.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eros le Tardfack

thankyou, i come from the today tonight school of journalism.

nah i don't begrude anyone making use of technology to expand on a solid foundation of mixing - what you're doing sounds cool.

my gripe is with the kid with his hands in the air syncing track after track in ableton (probably with live after his name), or as the thread initailly started - the dude warping tracks before buring to cd so he doesn't need to beatmatch. that's all.

Yeah, fair enough, as I said earlier in the thread, warping before burning to CD is a bizarre thing to do

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all i can say is fuck you ref you fuckhead

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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

This one time, we had 2 technics, 3 cdj, 2 MCs 1 KP2 and a smoke machine

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaVeR_SpIkE View Post

all i can say is fuck you ref you fuckhead

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Quote:

Originally Posted by walkdogz

and re. the person who mentioned you don't need a licence to beatmatch. I'd honestly say it takes as long to learn to beatmatch as to drive! I've got mates who have been doing it for years and still can't do it 100% of the time - they've never had a car crash though.

It might be hard for some, but for others it's a walk in the park. If you can't get beat matching down after a few years something is wrong. I know dudes that are some of the best beat matching, jugglers and scratchers out there and they crash cars, bad analogy, walkdogz.

So what if there's an influx of automated DJ's, most will be average (just like it is now with CDJ's), however some will come through with extra skills and tricks taking it to the next level and they will be the ones worth listening to.

We lose some skills and we gain additional ones, it's evolution and you can't fight it. Go with the flow or become stagnant.

Last edited by twelveBIT: 21-Feb-10 at 03:56pm

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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

It might be hard for some, but for others it's a walk in the park. If you can't get beat matching down after a few years something is wrong. I know dudes that are some of the best beat matching, jugglers and scratchers out there and they crash cars, bad analogy, walkdogz.

So what if there's an influx of automated DJ's, most will be average (just like it is now with CDJ's), however some will come through with extra skills and tricks taking it to the next level and they will be the ones worth listening to.

We lose some skills and we gain additional ones, it's evolution and you can't fight it. Go with the flow or become stagnant.

it was meant to be kinda tongue-in-cheek... some ppl can just never master it completely is all I'm saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pro Tool

Really? I see it the complete other way around. Go ahead and automate the beatmatching and keep the mixing human. That's the one thing which is going to make a real difference to how it sounds. The mixing is what's going to amount to the level of expression you have as a DJ. Beatmatching=on/off skill. You're doing it right or wrong. Mixing is nuanced and expressive and iondividual. Self indulgence is a common musical pitfall. Throw a 15 minute solo in there too. Wearing pants was a crazy concept once upon a time too.


I think we all do. But so is riding a bike, doing 100 pushups, cooking a souffle. All easily surmountable obstacles with practice.

I don't doubt you had some great times around the campfire too. It's not about discrediting your romantic nostalgic memories. I'm not saying beatmatching needs to go! It has its place. I'm still saying that its no longer that critical if you don't want it to be. And unfortunately, that's the truth.



Well no, I'm not full of shit. I'm making an argument which is well supported by the reality of the situation. Love it or loathe it, the future I predict is most probably going to become fact. Sync buttons in Traktor, Itch, Torq, Ableton, more in-the-box mixing, new software companies, and legions of kids to make use of the stuff without the stigma of the old guard. There's a generation leap where all the new fangled stuff will be the norm. Some will always beatmatch, some won't - but if you're afraid of losing your gig to the dude DJing out of Ableton, you might wanna get used to it. Kick and scream all you like.

Hell, you can always grab the microphone and yell out 'STOP THE MUSIC, STOP DANCING, DON'T YOU PEOPLE KNOW HE'S NOT BEATMATCHING!?!?!?!?!'. Wonder how that'd go down.

What I said wasn't meant to be against ableton and traktor, I was talking about warping CDs.

I love all the stuff being done with software, but I was just saying if you're gonna mix on CDJs or decks then at least do it properly instead of warping your tracks.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by pEAkeR_hAT

Does anyone else hate making a mix on a computer , but LOVE spinning records ?

I wish I loved mixing on a computer, but alas the passion just isn't there. wEIRD !

I do love both ways-but integrated! 3 turntables controlling TSP plus a controller for cue point sequencing-looping and some effects

can't let go of the tactility of the turntables nor get rid of the expanded tool set the software adds

tho I don't think this is what youre quite asking
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Quote:

Originally Posted by TravGTi

I find this concept of fearing or hating people who've locked their tracks to a tempo using
Ableton pretty obscure!

Just cos you know you have two tracks that are the same tempo that means you can instantly "beatmatch" does it? I dont see how this cues you up accurately and allows you to pull things into time after launched? If you can't beat mix you still can't beatmix even if your tempos are already the same theres still a fair bit of manual manipulation required to actually do it! All it's really doing is speeding up a part of the process (or did you stop to think he may have done it (granted I donít buy this being the guys motivation for a second) to actually make certain features on a CDJ usable-like auto looping-with all tracks based on the same tempo, loop lengths will then also be exact between all tracks even if they are pitched up or down? It would eliminate the issues you get with the loops not being locked to anything more accurate than +/-1bpm and actually mean that you could use them in the mix).

I think people who fixate on this whole automation of tasks is cheating idea are scared because it seems they feel beatmixing is the most powerful tool in their arsenal and it's intimidating them because we're running rapidly down a path to where the abilty to do it the oldschool way is becoming obsolete! The simple fact is even when we get there a great, stand-out, ultra epic and incomprehensibly stellar set is still going to be just that...and run of the mill, dime a dozen, lack lustre, uninventive is still gonna suck! Only difference will be it was serve on a differnet platter! (probably on no platter... Pun intended)

Some points to ponder if you wanna pursue this automation is "cheating" concept-Because based on your own logic you're probably already cheating yourself:

If you play you're track off a play button as opposed to manually manipulating a record, you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating!

If you back cue with a button as opposed to manually moving a needle and finding it by hand, you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating!

If you create loops on a CDJ or with software instead of using beat juggling style techniques - you're automating a manual technique-So you're obviously cheating

It's all relative people-what is now considered the norm or the holy grail """"industry standard-(my favourite term to hate ever)"""" was also at some point along the evolutionary cycle able to be considered to be cheating...

I wish people would spend more time to embrace all the technology thatís around us and find ways use it to expand their skill and creativity bases rather than fix yourself into your long established ways and blag people who can't replicate your limited set of manual techniques...

The way I see it if your abilities have limits (as everyones do-even the oldskool "do it all manually" masters-Craze, Q-Bert) donít hate on other people who you percieve to have greater limitations! Cos you're both limited and all they have are different limitations!

Spend your time creating not forum hating!


Spot on!

Can somone please make this and "Automated" response every time this pointless OLD argument comes along!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Eros le Tardfack

beatmatching is a skill.

if you remove that skill, you remove a barrier to entry that has always been a part of djing.

thus the scene gets flooded with heaps of knobs who haven't spent the time required to learn the craft. when learning to beatmatch you also learn about phasing, levels, flow and programming of a set.

THIS

And all I'd like to add, for those saying we're worried about a boogy-man, vilifying without understanding blah blah blah, I personally am not! I'm all for the use of technology to produce a unique and creative set...however, we're not talking about people PROPERLY using said technology to create a unique and creative set, we're talking ONLY about people using Ableton, or other, specifically to warp all the tracks to the same BPM to then DJ with them on CDJs. The art of "the mix" is a creative part of a set, part of that art is the beat matching and holding of the mix...we've all conceeded that beat matching isn't hard, right? So if it isn't hard, why bother fucking around in sound software warping EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE of your tracks to remove a "simple" part of the mixing process? This is my beef with it, you either A) can't mix and are cheating or B) if you can mix, what the fuck is the point???

Don't even compare this to actual use of digital DJing software used to the proper extent and played live, you're mudding the waters of what this thread is about, people going on about other people vilifying something we "don't understand" can back off, you're missing the point, I don't think anyone has denied digital DJing as being unskilful or anything like that.

Lets keep to the point at hand, warping your tracks to same BPM to DJ them on CDJs is fucking lame, through and through, it's about as UNcreative as you can get
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

It might be hard for some, but for others it's a walk in the park. If you can't get beat matching down after a few years something is wrong.

Yes, true enough, but the time taken over those possible years learning on match them, is also time spend reifining your skills of phrasing, programming, track selection, EQ'ing, flow, progression...remove the beat matching through warping/sync'ing, remove the years of practice learning those other, more crucial skills that go into being a good DJ.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidTjin

haha tbh im learning beatmatching again.. been using dvs and beatmatch visually for a long time has finally kick me in the butt.. it is painful and frustrating but fun ahahaha.. the trainwreck!!

well David, at least you are honest
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Random_Kiwi

Lets keep to the point at hand, warping your tracks to same BPM to DJ them on CDJs is fucking lame, through and through, it's about as UNcreative as you can get

^^^^
exactly my thoughts.

Regards to "reifining your skills of phrasing, programming, track selection, EQ'ing, flow, progression" surely this can still be learnt without beat matching and could even speed up the process of acquiring these skills because the time and effort is not spent on beat matching.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

Regards to "reifining your skills of phrasing, programming, track selection, EQ'ing, flow, progression" surely this can still be learnt without beat matching and could even speed up the process of acquiring these skills because the time and effort is not spent on beat matching.

sure, you could read some books or watch that ellaskins guy on youtube. Just skip the really early one in the series titled 'beatmatching'
There are two ways to learn, hands on or hands off, practical experience or theory
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

Regards to "reifining your skills of phrasing, programming, track selection, EQ'ing, flow, progression" surely this can still be learnt without beat matching and could even speed up the process of acquiring these skills because the time and effort is not spent on beat matching.

Well yes, I guess...more alluding to the fact that sans beat-matching, you could conceivably be gigging well before you've had half a chance to learn the above things...
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Macc4, I'm not talking about theory (reading and watching). I'm talking about actual practice, the same amount of practice you or I put into it. With these new apps that warp and auto sync does not mean you can't actually practice other forms of DJing with them.

@ Random Kiwi, yes that's true, but the DJ would most likely be a dud.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by twelveBIT

Macc4, I'm not talking about theory (reading and watching). I'm talking about actual practice, the same amount of practice you or I put into it. With these new apps that warp and auto sync does not mean you can't actually practice other forms of DJing with them.

so, you want to remove timing out of the equation. So you can press buttons early and the let the software drop stuff on the right count.
If you take away a musicians timing, what are you left with? Megan White from the white stripes perhaps?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by macc4

so, you want to remove timing out of the equation. So you can press buttons early and the let the software drop stuff on the right count.
If you take away a musicians timing, what are you left with? Megan White from the white stripes perhaps?


LOL @ Meg, poor girl.

In the right hands it can be a very powerful tool. You still need some timing for clip triggering, unless you have quantized the shit out the global clip launch (which could still give bad results).

Musicians timing is a lot different, they have been taught to count in their heads and that generates the tempo. A DJ does not do this, they have the beat from the tune and will follow that.
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They are very similar, and use the same part of the brain. It's why some can count through a breakdown, line up a double drop etc etc
This whole thread relates to warping - timing, or lack thereof
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i honestly don't mind what medium the dj is using to play their music, because its not all about the dj. if the dj can play a nice set on laptops and can please the crowd, no harm done. if the dj has to pre-warp tracks to make his mix better, for the people, why not. i don't personally do this because i honestly could not be fucked, but its to each their own.
i appreciate when i go into a club and see a dj rocking vinyls, gives you that warm feeling. but for the general crowd, they probaly couldn't care less. most are mezmorized by the dj, and stare at the mixer like its controlling a nasa space craft.
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Personally, I dont mind people warping their tracks.

I dont do it myself, but on a cdj it takes like 15 seconds to cue up a track. Its not like it benefits them "that" much.

I have a friend who does it although the only times I've seen him do it was for DJ Comps or when he had a festival set. Just so he could mix and mash stuff up alot quicker.

Kinda cheap in the way, but for the effort put in to warp a track, doesnt save that much time on the floor imo - Although it probably does benefit against time needed to learn the track.....Which kinda sucks that a dj might not know it.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kefuan

I have a friend who does it although the only times I've seen him do it was for DJ Comps or when he had a festival set. Just so he could mix and mash stuff up alot quicker.

For a competition?!?! Now that right there is rank, through and through, imo
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agree with you kiwi. i would frown upon that in a comp! thats the point of the comp anyway.
in a club, i dont care what you do, just play the tunes and keep the night rolling!
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if someone is going to warp tracks or not beatmatch. Well at least loose that skill and replace it with another one for EG; programming, layering, effects, adding live elements to a set etc etc.
Mixing tracks together without beatmatching shows how lazy a dj is. But if they add more to the set replacing the beatmatching. Then all for it.
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Last edited by GrEnNo: 22-Feb-10 at 03:12pm

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